Vertex-transitive polytope with large facet












6












$begingroup$


Consider a vertex-transitive convex polytope with a facet containing more than the half of all vertices. Does it already have to be a simplex or are there other examples?



I am particularly interested in the case where even the affine symmetry group of the polytope acts transitively on its vertices, i.e. we are talking about an orbit polytope.



Thank you in advance!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
    $endgroup$
    – Christian Blatter
    Mar 2 '14 at 12:34










  • $begingroup$
    @ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 2 '14 at 16:54










  • $begingroup$
    For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Mar 4 '14 at 22:24










  • $begingroup$
    @StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 8:24










  • $begingroup$
    I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
    $endgroup$
    – M. Winter
    Dec 24 '18 at 13:41
















6












$begingroup$


Consider a vertex-transitive convex polytope with a facet containing more than the half of all vertices. Does it already have to be a simplex or are there other examples?



I am particularly interested in the case where even the affine symmetry group of the polytope acts transitively on its vertices, i.e. we are talking about an orbit polytope.



Thank you in advance!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
    $endgroup$
    – Christian Blatter
    Mar 2 '14 at 12:34










  • $begingroup$
    @ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 2 '14 at 16:54










  • $begingroup$
    For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Mar 4 '14 at 22:24










  • $begingroup$
    @StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 8:24










  • $begingroup$
    I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
    $endgroup$
    – M. Winter
    Dec 24 '18 at 13:41














6












6








6


1



$begingroup$


Consider a vertex-transitive convex polytope with a facet containing more than the half of all vertices. Does it already have to be a simplex or are there other examples?



I am particularly interested in the case where even the affine symmetry group of the polytope acts transitively on its vertices, i.e. we are talking about an orbit polytope.



Thank you in advance!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Consider a vertex-transitive convex polytope with a facet containing more than the half of all vertices. Does it already have to be a simplex or are there other examples?



I am particularly interested in the case where even the affine symmetry group of the polytope acts transitively on its vertices, i.e. we are talking about an orbit polytope.



Thank you in advance!







geometry finite-groups euclidean-geometry permutations polytopes






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 3 '14 at 16:32







Dune

















asked Feb 21 '14 at 9:25









DuneDune

4,46711231




4,46711231












  • $begingroup$
    Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
    $endgroup$
    – Christian Blatter
    Mar 2 '14 at 12:34










  • $begingroup$
    @ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 2 '14 at 16:54










  • $begingroup$
    For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Mar 4 '14 at 22:24










  • $begingroup$
    @StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 8:24










  • $begingroup$
    I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
    $endgroup$
    – M. Winter
    Dec 24 '18 at 13:41


















  • $begingroup$
    Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
    $endgroup$
    – Christian Blatter
    Mar 2 '14 at 12:34










  • $begingroup$
    @ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 2 '14 at 16:54










  • $begingroup$
    For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Mar 4 '14 at 22:24










  • $begingroup$
    @StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 8:24










  • $begingroup$
    I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
    $endgroup$
    – M. Winter
    Dec 24 '18 at 13:41
















$begingroup$
Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
$endgroup$
– Christian Blatter
Mar 2 '14 at 12:34




$begingroup$
Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
$endgroup$
– Christian Blatter
Mar 2 '14 at 12:34












$begingroup$
@ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 2 '14 at 16:54




$begingroup$
@ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 2 '14 at 16:54












$begingroup$
For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Mar 4 '14 at 22:24




$begingroup$
For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Mar 4 '14 at 22:24












$begingroup$
@StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:24




$begingroup$
@StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:24












$begingroup$
I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Dec 24 '18 at 13:41




$begingroup$
I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Dec 24 '18 at 13:41










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















3





+50







$begingroup$

Question



Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.



Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.



Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?



Answer



Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.



My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.



The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.



Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:



For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.



It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.



The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.



Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
{1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
{2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
{3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$



This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.



The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)



The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 16:32










  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 16:52












  • $begingroup$
    n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 18:38










  • $begingroup$
    The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 18:55










  • $begingroup$
    One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 19:19



















1












$begingroup$

Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:



For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 8:42










  • $begingroup$
    Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
    $endgroup$
    – Carser
    Mar 5 '14 at 20:43










  • $begingroup$
    Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 22:53



















1












$begingroup$

Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.



An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.




The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.




Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:



$$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$



Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
    });
    });
    }, "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "69"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f684642%2fvertex-transitive-polytope-with-large-facet%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    3





    +50







    $begingroup$

    Question



    Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.



    Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.



    Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?



    Answer



    Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.



    My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.



    The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.



    Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:



    For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.



    It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.



    The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.



    Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
    {1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
    {2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
    {3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$



    This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.



    The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)



    The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
    and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 16:32










    • $begingroup$
      Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 16:52












    • $begingroup$
      n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 18:38










    • $begingroup$
      The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 18:55










    • $begingroup$
      One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 19:19
















    3





    +50







    $begingroup$

    Question



    Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.



    Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.



    Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?



    Answer



    Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.



    My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.



    The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.



    Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:



    For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.



    It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.



    The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.



    Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
    {1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
    {2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
    {3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$



    This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.



    The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)



    The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
    and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 16:32










    • $begingroup$
      Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 16:52












    • $begingroup$
      n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 18:38










    • $begingroup$
      The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 18:55










    • $begingroup$
      One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 19:19














    3





    +50







    3





    +50



    3




    +50



    $begingroup$

    Question



    Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.



    Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.



    Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?



    Answer



    Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.



    My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.



    The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.



    Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:



    For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.



    It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.



    The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.



    Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
    {1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
    {2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
    {3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$



    This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.



    The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)



    The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
    and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Question



    Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.



    Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.



    Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?



    Answer



    Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.



    My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.



    The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.



    Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:



    For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.



    It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.



    The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.



    Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
    {1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
    {2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
    {3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$



    This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.



    The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)



    The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
    and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Mar 5 '14 at 18:23

























    answered Mar 5 '14 at 16:32









    Jack SchmidtJack Schmidt

    43.2k572152




    43.2k572152












    • $begingroup$
      Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 16:32










    • $begingroup$
      Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 16:52












    • $begingroup$
      n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 18:38










    • $begingroup$
      The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 18:55










    • $begingroup$
      One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 19:19


















    • $begingroup$
      Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 16:32










    • $begingroup$
      Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 16:52












    • $begingroup$
      n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 18:38










    • $begingroup$
      The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 18:55










    • $begingroup$
      One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
      $endgroup$
      – Jack Schmidt
      Mar 5 '14 at 19:19
















    $begingroup$
    Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 16:32




    $begingroup$
    Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 16:32












    $begingroup$
    Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 16:52






    $begingroup$
    Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 16:52














    $begingroup$
    n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 18:38




    $begingroup$
    n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 18:38












    $begingroup$
    The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 18:55




    $begingroup$
    The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 18:55












    $begingroup$
    One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 19:19




    $begingroup$
    One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
    $endgroup$
    – Jack Schmidt
    Mar 5 '14 at 19:19











    1












    $begingroup$

    Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:



    For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 8:42










    • $begingroup$
      Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
      $endgroup$
      – Carser
      Mar 5 '14 at 20:43










    • $begingroup$
      Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 22:53
















    1












    $begingroup$

    Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:



    For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 8:42










    • $begingroup$
      Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
      $endgroup$
      – Carser
      Mar 5 '14 at 20:43










    • $begingroup$
      Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 22:53














    1












    1








    1





    $begingroup$

    Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:



    For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:



    For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered Mar 4 '14 at 22:06









    CarserCarser

    2,63541027




    2,63541027












    • $begingroup$
      Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 8:42










    • $begingroup$
      Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
      $endgroup$
      – Carser
      Mar 5 '14 at 20:43










    • $begingroup$
      Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 22:53


















    • $begingroup$
      Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 8:42










    • $begingroup$
      Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
      $endgroup$
      – Carser
      Mar 5 '14 at 20:43










    • $begingroup$
      Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
      $endgroup$
      – Dune
      Mar 5 '14 at 22:53
















    $begingroup$
    Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 8:42




    $begingroup$
    Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 8:42












    $begingroup$
    Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
    $endgroup$
    – Carser
    Mar 5 '14 at 20:43




    $begingroup$
    Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
    $endgroup$
    – Carser
    Mar 5 '14 at 20:43












    $begingroup$
    Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 22:53




    $begingroup$
    Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
    $endgroup$
    – Dune
    Mar 5 '14 at 22:53











    1












    $begingroup$

    Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.



    An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.




    The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.




    Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:



    $$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$



    Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$


















      1












      $begingroup$

      Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.



      An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.




      The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.




      Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:



      $$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$



      Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$
















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.



        An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.




        The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.




        Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:



        $$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$



        Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.



        An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.




        The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.




        Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:



        $$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$



        Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Dec 24 '18 at 14:10

























        answered Dec 24 '18 at 13:57









        M. WinterM. Winter

        19.1k72866




        19.1k72866






























            draft saved

            draft discarded




















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f684642%2fvertex-transitive-polytope-with-large-facet%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Wiesbaden

            Marschland

            Dieringhausen