Vertex-transitive polytope with large facet
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Consider a vertex-transitive convex polytope with a facet containing more than the half of all vertices. Does it already have to be a simplex or are there other examples?
I am particularly interested in the case where even the affine symmetry group of the polytope acts transitively on its vertices, i.e. we are talking about an orbit polytope.
Thank you in advance!
geometry finite-groups euclidean-geometry permutations polytopes
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider a vertex-transitive convex polytope with a facet containing more than the half of all vertices. Does it already have to be a simplex or are there other examples?
I am particularly interested in the case where even the affine symmetry group of the polytope acts transitively on its vertices, i.e. we are talking about an orbit polytope.
Thank you in advance!
geometry finite-groups euclidean-geometry permutations polytopes
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Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
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– Christian Blatter
Mar 2 '14 at 12:34
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@ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
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– Dune
Mar 2 '14 at 16:54
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For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
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– Steven Stadnicki
Mar 4 '14 at 22:24
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@StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
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– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:24
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I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Dec 24 '18 at 13:41
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider a vertex-transitive convex polytope with a facet containing more than the half of all vertices. Does it already have to be a simplex or are there other examples?
I am particularly interested in the case where even the affine symmetry group of the polytope acts transitively on its vertices, i.e. we are talking about an orbit polytope.
Thank you in advance!
geometry finite-groups euclidean-geometry permutations polytopes
$endgroup$
Consider a vertex-transitive convex polytope with a facet containing more than the half of all vertices. Does it already have to be a simplex or are there other examples?
I am particularly interested in the case where even the affine symmetry group of the polytope acts transitively on its vertices, i.e. we are talking about an orbit polytope.
Thank you in advance!
geometry finite-groups euclidean-geometry permutations polytopes
geometry finite-groups euclidean-geometry permutations polytopes
edited Mar 3 '14 at 16:32
Dune
asked Feb 21 '14 at 9:25
DuneDune
4,46711231
4,46711231
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Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
$endgroup$
– Christian Blatter
Mar 2 '14 at 12:34
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@ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 2 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Mar 4 '14 at 22:24
$begingroup$
@StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:24
$begingroup$
I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Dec 24 '18 at 13:41
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
$endgroup$
– Christian Blatter
Mar 2 '14 at 12:34
$begingroup$
@ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 2 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Mar 4 '14 at 22:24
$begingroup$
@StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:24
$begingroup$
I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Dec 24 '18 at 13:41
$begingroup$
Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
$endgroup$
– Christian Blatter
Mar 2 '14 at 12:34
$begingroup$
Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
$endgroup$
– Christian Blatter
Mar 2 '14 at 12:34
$begingroup$
@ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 2 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
@ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 2 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Mar 4 '14 at 22:24
$begingroup$
For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Mar 4 '14 at 22:24
$begingroup$
@StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:24
$begingroup$
@StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:24
$begingroup$
I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Dec 24 '18 at 13:41
$begingroup$
I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Dec 24 '18 at 13:41
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Question
Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.
Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.
Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?
Answer
Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.
My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.
The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.
Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:
For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.
It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.
The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.
Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
{1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
{2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
{3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$
This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.
The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)
The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.
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$begingroup$
Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
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– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 16:32
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Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
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– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 16:52
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n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:38
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The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
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– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:55
$begingroup$
One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
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– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 19:19
|
show 1 more comment
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Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:
For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.
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Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
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– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:42
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Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
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– Carser
Mar 5 '14 at 20:43
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Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
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– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 22:53
add a comment |
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Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.
An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.
The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.
Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:
$$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$
Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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$begingroup$
Question
Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.
Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.
Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?
Answer
Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.
My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.
The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.
Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:
For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.
It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.
The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.
Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
{1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
{2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
{3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$
This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.
The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)
The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 16:32
$begingroup$
Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 16:52
$begingroup$
n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:38
$begingroup$
The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:55
$begingroup$
One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 19:19
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Question
Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.
Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.
Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?
Answer
Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.
My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.
The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.
Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:
For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.
It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.
The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.
Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
{1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
{2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
{3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$
This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.
The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)
The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 16:32
$begingroup$
Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 16:52
$begingroup$
n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:38
$begingroup$
The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:55
$begingroup$
One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 19:19
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Question
Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.
Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.
Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?
Answer
Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.
My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.
The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.
Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:
For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.
It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.
The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.
Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
{1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
{2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
{3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$
This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.
The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)
The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.
$endgroup$
Question
Every edge of a triangle contains all but one of the vertices. Every face of a tetrahedron contains all but one of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-simplex contains all but one of the vertices.
Every edge of q square contains half of the vertices. Every face of a cube contains half of the vertices. Every $(n-1)$-face of an $n$-cube contains half the vertices.
Is there anything in between the triangle and the square?
Answer
Yes! The dual of the cyclic polytope can be an example if parameters are chosen well.
My knowledge of this combinatorial example is due to Carl Lee; the (poor) exposition is due solely to me.
The polytope is 4-dimensional and its combinatorial automorphism group acts vertex transitively. I'm not sure if the standard embedding as the convex hull on points of the moment curve has full combinatorial automorphism group.
Also, I'm not particularly versed in this area, so I describe it in dual form first:
For every pair of positive integers $n$ and $k$ with $kgeq 2n$ define a polytope $P_{n,k}$ as the $2n$-dimensional (abstract) polytope with vertices the integers ${1,2,dots,k}$ mod $k$ and maximal facets ($(2n-1)$-faces) given by $2n$-sets of the form $$bigcup_{i=1}^n { a_i, a_i +1 }$$ for integers $a_i$ taken mod $k$ such that result really does have $2n$ elements.
It is not hard to count these, there are $binom{k-n}{n} + binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them, and exactly $2binom{k-n-1}{n-1}$ of them contain the vertex $1$. The cyclic group $mathbb{Z}/kmathbb{Z}$ acts vertex transitively on the polytope by acting regularly (by addition) on the vertices. This polytope's full symmetry group is usually the dihedral group of order $2k$ acting naturally on the $k$ points, but is sometimes larger.
The polytope in question is the dual polytope, where $n$ and $k$ are chosen so that the inequality works out.
Specifically, $n=2$ (4-dimensional) and $k=6$ gives vertices ${1,2,3,4,5,6}$ and maximal facets $left{
{1,2,3,4}, {1,2,4,5}, {1,2,5,6}, \~~~
{2,3,4,5}, {2,3,5,6}, {2,3,6,1}, \~~~
{3,4,5,6}, {3,4,6,1}, {4,5,6,1} right}$
This polytope has 9 facets, and each vertex is contained in 6 maximal facets.
The dual polytope has 9 vertices, and each maximal facet contains 6 vertices. (Yay!)
The combinatorial automorphism group of the cyclic polytope is a wreath product $$S_3 wr S_2 = langle (1,3,5), (1,3), (1,2)(3,4)(5,6) rangle$$
and one can check explicitly that this acts transitively on the maximal facets. Hence in the dual, the combinatorial automorphism group is vertex transitive.
edited Mar 5 '14 at 18:23
answered Mar 5 '14 at 16:32
Jack SchmidtJack Schmidt
43.2k572152
43.2k572152
$begingroup$
Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 16:32
$begingroup$
Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 16:52
$begingroup$
n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:38
$begingroup$
The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:55
$begingroup$
One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 19:19
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 16:32
$begingroup$
Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 16:52
$begingroup$
n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:38
$begingroup$
The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:55
$begingroup$
One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 19:19
$begingroup$
Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 16:32
$begingroup$
Let me know if you need the dual polytope described more explicitly, or if you need an embedding into $mathbb{R}^n$. I also just take it one faith the dual is also vertex transitive; I can check in GAP if you'd like, but I thought I'd ask Carl later to walk me through the dual polytope again. :-)
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 16:32
$begingroup$
Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 16:52
$begingroup$
Thank you for this great answer! This could be a very nice counterexample due to its small dimension (all counterexamples I know are of dimension above 70. But could you please check whether it is vertex-transitive? It is not evident just because of its dual being vertex-transitive. Of course an embedding would also be very nice. :)
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 16:52
$begingroup$
n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:38
$begingroup$
n=3 (dim=6), k=8 also works. I think those are the only 4 and 6 dimensional examples. It appears n=3, k=2n+2 may work in general, same automorphism group structure. I don't know if you need an infinite family (and still don't know about a nice embedding, but surely that can be looked up as the polytope is famous).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:38
$begingroup$
The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:55
$begingroup$
The "typical" combinatorial automorphism group, dihedral of order 2k, is realizable as affine symmetries of the "standard" embedding of the cyclic polytope. These aren't isometries (they include shears), and I worry the full combinatorial automorphism group in the k=2n+2 case cannot be geometrically realized in any sense (even projectively).
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 18:55
$begingroup$
One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 19:19
$begingroup$
One reason this example might occur to check is that the dual cyclic polytope is the unique maximizer of the number of vertices given the number of faces, so if we want to stuff vertices into faces, then dual cyclic sounds like a good idea. The face transitivity condition seems pretty unnatural to me so far.
$endgroup$
– Jack Schmidt
Mar 5 '14 at 19:19
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:
For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:42
$begingroup$
Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
$endgroup$
– Carser
Mar 5 '14 at 20:43
$begingroup$
Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 22:53
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:
For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:42
$begingroup$
Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
$endgroup$
– Carser
Mar 5 '14 at 20:43
$begingroup$
Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 22:53
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:
For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.
$endgroup$
Sorry I could not make this a comment because I do not have enough reputation yet, but here is an outline:
For any dimension $n$, start with the simplex of that dimension. The number of vertices in any feature of that simplex will be $n$ with a total number of vertices $n+1$. Now add enough vertices in order to achieve the next simplest vertex-transitive convex polytope. As you continue this process, the total number of vertices increases monotonically and faster than the number of vertices per feature. So for dimension $n=2$ and above, this means you must have a simplex given your conditions. I am unsure about the specifics with $n=0$ or 1.
answered Mar 4 '14 at 22:06
CarserCarser
2,63541027
2,63541027
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:42
$begingroup$
Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
$endgroup$
– Carser
Mar 5 '14 at 20:43
$begingroup$
Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 22:53
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:42
$begingroup$
Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
$endgroup$
– Carser
Mar 5 '14 at 20:43
$begingroup$
Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 22:53
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:42
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer! I am not sure if I am understanding right. The next simplest vertex-transitive polytopes in my opinion are achieved by placing a vertex on the top of the barycenter of every facet. But in this way every new facet will still be a simplex... On the other hand: do you think you can construct a counterexample in dimension 3 in this way? That would surprise me, I do not think that there is one.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:42
$begingroup$
Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
$endgroup$
– Carser
Mar 5 '14 at 20:43
$begingroup$
Hmmm, first let me ask, what precisely are you calling a facet? For example, in 3D, I am accustom to calling vertices, edges, and faces all "facets," but for your problem I thought you were referring to a feature composed of vertices that had dimension of $n-1$ i.e. a face in the 3D case.
$endgroup$
– Carser
Mar 5 '14 at 20:43
$begingroup$
Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 22:53
$begingroup$
Yes. As mentioned above with "facets" I mean $(n-1)$-dimensional faces.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 22:53
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.
An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.
The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.
Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:
$$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$
Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.
An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.
The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.
Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:
$$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$
Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.
An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.
The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.
Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:
$$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$
Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.
$endgroup$
Let $Psubseteq Bbb R^d$ be a $d$-dimensional vertex-transitive polytope with $n$ vertices, and a facet containing $m<n$ of these vertices.
An appropriately chosen free join of $P$ with itself will give you a vertex-transitive polytope of dimension $2d+1$, with $2n$ vertices, and a facet containing $n+m$ of these.
The free join construction embedds two polytopes, say $P_1$ and $P_2$, in skew affine subspaces and takes their convex hull. A facet of the free join is spanned by $P_1$ and a facet of $P_2$ or the other way around. If you need more information on this construction, I can elaborate.
Iterating this construction gives you vertex-transitive polytopes containing an arbitrarily large percentage of the vertices. More precisely, after applying the free join $k$ times, you obtain a polytope with $2^kn$ vertices, a facet containing $(2^k-1)n+m$ of these, and therefore the following fraction of the vertices:
$$frac{(2^k-1)n+m}{2^k n}=(1-2^{-k})+2^{-k}frac mn quadxrightarrow{ktoinfty}quad 1.$$
Example. The smallest example that I can obtain in this way (for which I am sure that it is not a simplex) is the free join of a square with itself. It will give you a $5$-dimensional (self-dual) polytope with 8 vertices and 8 facets, and each of these contains $6$ vertices.
edited Dec 24 '18 at 14:10
answered Dec 24 '18 at 13:57
M. WinterM. Winter
19.1k72866
19.1k72866
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Is this in ${mathbb R}^3$ or in $N$ dimensions?
$endgroup$
– Christian Blatter
Mar 2 '14 at 12:34
$begingroup$
@ChristianBlatter: The dimension can be arbitrary large.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 2 '14 at 16:54
$begingroup$
For clarification: by 'facet' do you mean $2$-face, or $(n-1)$-face (i.e., 'co-vertex')?
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Mar 4 '14 at 22:24
$begingroup$
@StevenStadnicki: I mean $(n-1)$-face where $n$ is the dimension of the polytope.
$endgroup$
– Dune
Mar 5 '14 at 8:24
$begingroup$
I have some trouble understanding the second paragraph: isn't a polytope consideres vertex-transitive if and only if its affine symmetry group acts transitively on its vertices?
$endgroup$
– M. Winter
Dec 24 '18 at 13:41