Is there a condition under which a child can be exempt from honoring his father?
This is a serious question seeking sources that discuss the topic.
I speculate that a father that regrets his son being born, does not support him, does not teach him Torah or Mitzvos etc., is considered "תוהא על הראשונות" (Rambam: one that regrets doing a Mitzvah is not rewarded for it.) may somehow lose his right to Kibud Av of the child.
Maybe serious child abuse or even rape can suffice.
Any sources or thoughts on this?
halacha kibbud-av-veim-honoring
edited Dec 24 '18 at 7:57
WAF
17.2k434101
asked Dec 23 '18 at 23:37
Al BerkoAl Berko
5,707528
add a comment |
This is a serious question seeking sources that discuss the topic.
I speculate that a father that regrets his son being born, does not support him, does not teach him Torah or Mitzvos etc., is considered "תוהא על הראשונות" (Rambam: one that regrets doing a Mitzvah is not rewarded for it.) may somehow lose his right to Kibud Av of the child.
Maybe serious child abuse or even rape can suffice.
Any sources or thoughts on this?
halacha kibbud-av-veim-honoring
edited Dec 24 '18 at 7:57
WAF
17.2k434101
asked Dec 23 '18 at 23:37
Al BerkoAl Berko
5,707528
"On the day that I was born, Daddy sat down and cried..."--Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia
– Gary
Dec 23 '18 at 23:43
Even a mamzer has to honor his parents, so the answer’s probably “no.”
– DonielF
Dec 24 '18 at 2:05
1
@donielF a rasha is diff,see my answer
– sam
Dec 24 '18 at 2:36
זכור... כבד. Shabbat
– kouty
Dec 24 '18 at 8:37
add a comment |
This is a serious question seeking sources that discuss the topic.
I speculate that a father that regrets his son being born, does not support him, does not teach him Torah or Mitzvos etc., is considered "תוהא על הראשונות" (Rambam: one that regrets doing a Mitzvah is not rewarded for it.) may somehow lose his right to Kibud Av of the child.
Maybe serious child abuse or even rape can suffice.
Any sources or thoughts on this?
halacha kibbud-av-veim-honoring
edited Dec 24 '18 at 7:57
WAF
17.2k434101
asked Dec 23 '18 at 23:37
Al BerkoAl Berko
5,707528
This is a serious question seeking sources that discuss the topic.
I speculate that a father that regrets his son being born, does not support him, does not teach him Torah or Mitzvos etc., is considered "תוהא על הראשונות" (Rambam: one that regrets doing a Mitzvah is not rewarded for it.) may somehow lose his right to Kibud Av of the child.
Maybe serious child abuse or even rape can suffice.
Any sources or thoughts on this?
halacha kibbud-av-veim-honoring
halacha kibbud-av-veim-honoring
edited Dec 24 '18 at 7:57
WAF
17.2k434101
asked Dec 23 '18 at 23:37
Al BerkoAl Berko
5,707528
edited Dec 24 '18 at 7:57
WAF
17.2k434101
asked Dec 23 '18 at 23:37
Al BerkoAl Berko
5,707528
edited Dec 24 '18 at 7:57
WAF
17.2k434101
edited Dec 24 '18 at 7:57
WAF
17.2k434101
edited Dec 24 '18 at 7:57
WAF
17.2k434101
17.2k434101
asked Dec 23 '18 at 23:37
Al BerkoAl Berko
5,707528
asked Dec 23 '18 at 23:37
Al BerkoAl Berko
5,707528
asked Dec 23 '18 at 23:37
Al BerkoAl Berko
5,707528
5,707528
"On the day that I was born, Daddy sat down and cried..."--Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia
– Gary
Dec 23 '18 at 23:43
Even a mamzer has to honor his parents, so the answer’s probably “no.”
– DonielF
Dec 24 '18 at 2:05
1
@donielF a rasha is diff,see my answer
– sam
Dec 24 '18 at 2:36
זכור... כבד. Shabbat
– kouty
Dec 24 '18 at 8:37
add a comment |
"On the day that I was born, Daddy sat down and cried..."--Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia
– Gary
Dec 23 '18 at 23:43
Even a mamzer has to honor his parents, so the answer’s probably “no.”
– DonielF
Dec 24 '18 at 2:05
1
@donielF a rasha is diff,see my answer
– sam
Dec 24 '18 at 2:36
זכור... כבד. Shabbat
– kouty
Dec 24 '18 at 8:37
"On the day that I was born, Daddy sat down and cried..."--Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia
– Gary
Dec 23 '18 at 23:43
"On the day that I was born, Daddy sat down and cried..."--Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia
– Gary
Dec 23 '18 at 23:43
Even a mamzer has to honor his parents, so the answer’s probably “no.”
– DonielF
Dec 24 '18 at 2:05
Even a mamzer has to honor his parents, so the answer’s probably “no.”
– DonielF
Dec 24 '18 at 2:05
1
1
@donielF a rasha is diff,see my answer
– sam
Dec 24 '18 at 2:36
@donielF a rasha is diff,see my answer
– sam
Dec 24 '18 at 2:36
זכור... כבד. Shabbat
– kouty
Dec 24 '18 at 8:37
זכור... כבד. Shabbat
– kouty
Dec 24 '18 at 8:37
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
The Shulchan Aruch 240:18 discusses a father who is a Rasha. The Mechaber holds that there is Kibud av by a Rasha (not defined), but Ram"a argues.
ממזר חייב בכבוד אביו ובמוראו. אפילו היה אביו רשע ובעל עבירות – מכבדו ומתיירא ממנו.
הגה: ויש אומרים דאינו מחוייב לכבד אביו רשע, אלא אם כן עשה תשובה.
(טור ומרדכי פרק "כיצד", ובהגהות מיימוני פרק שישי דהלכות ממרים.)
There is a very good Hakira article on this subject.
edited Dec 24 '18 at 11:54
Al Berko
5,707528
answered Dec 24 '18 at 0:32
samsam
26.1k14899
2
Good answer, +1. Consider summarizing some of the points in the article.
– רבות מחשבות
Dec 24 '18 at 5:10
1. Thank you. 2. Do we say then that Sefardim honor anyway and Ashkenazis are exempt? :) How does יש אמרים value? I read Tur but he sounds very distant - a very weak proof (from a stolen cow...). 2.5 A very serious (albeit a bit biased) article. I also think it's worth to try to summarize it to the answer would be full and exhaustive.
– Al Berko
Dec 24 '18 at 12:00
add a comment |
I think one can shed light on this issue by examining the sources regarding the term "honor" (sometimes translated also as "respect").
No where does it say to love, appreciate, etc etc. In fact I heard one Rabbi asked by a woman, what if the situation is so tense that every time she tries talking to her mother, things get dicey, and it seems her mother doesn't even want to talk to her. The rabbi's response: you honor her by NOT talking to her...
So yes, honor is required; but look closely at what practical implications this has in halacha.
answered Dec 24 '18 at 5:38
YsiegelYsiegel
1293
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The Shulchan Aruch 240:18 discusses a father who is a Rasha. The Mechaber holds that there is Kibud av by a Rasha (not defined), but Ram"a argues.
ממזר חייב בכבוד אביו ובמוראו. אפילו היה אביו רשע ובעל עבירות – מכבדו ומתיירא ממנו.
הגה: ויש אומרים דאינו מחוייב לכבד אביו רשע, אלא אם כן עשה תשובה.
(טור ומרדכי פרק "כיצד", ובהגהות מיימוני פרק שישי דהלכות ממרים.)
There is a very good Hakira article on this subject.
edited Dec 24 '18 at 11:54
Al Berko
5,707528
answered Dec 24 '18 at 0:32
samsam
26.1k14899
2
Good answer, +1. Consider summarizing some of the points in the article.
– רבות מחשבות
Dec 24 '18 at 5:10
1. Thank you. 2. Do we say then that Sefardim honor anyway and Ashkenazis are exempt? :) How does יש אמרים value? I read Tur but he sounds very distant - a very weak proof (from a stolen cow...). 2.5 A very serious (albeit a bit biased) article. I also think it's worth to try to summarize it to the answer would be full and exhaustive.
– Al Berko
Dec 24 '18 at 12:00
add a comment |
The Shulchan Aruch 240:18 discusses a father who is a Rasha. The Mechaber holds that there is Kibud av by a Rasha (not defined), but Ram"a argues.
ממזר חייב בכבוד אביו ובמוראו. אפילו היה אביו רשע ובעל עבירות – מכבדו ומתיירא ממנו.
הגה: ויש אומרים דאינו מחוייב לכבד אביו רשע, אלא אם כן עשה תשובה.
(טור ומרדכי פרק "כיצד", ובהגהות מיימוני פרק שישי דהלכות ממרים.)
There is a very good Hakira article on this subject.
edited Dec 24 '18 at 11:54
Al Berko
5,707528
answered Dec 24 '18 at 0:32
samsam
26.1k14899
2
Good answer, +1. Consider summarizing some of the points in the article.
– רבות מחשבות
Dec 24 '18 at 5:10
1. Thank you. 2. Do we say then that Sefardim honor anyway and Ashkenazis are exempt? :) How does יש אמרים value? I read Tur but he sounds very distant - a very weak proof (from a stolen cow...). 2.5 A very serious (albeit a bit biased) article. I also think it's worth to try to summarize it to the answer would be full and exhaustive.
– Al Berko
Dec 24 '18 at 12:00
add a comment |
The Shulchan Aruch 240:18 discusses a father who is a Rasha. The Mechaber holds that there is Kibud av by a Rasha (not defined), but Ram"a argues.
ממזר חייב בכבוד אביו ובמוראו. אפילו היה אביו רשע ובעל עבירות – מכבדו ומתיירא ממנו.
הגה: ויש אומרים דאינו מחוייב לכבד אביו רשע, אלא אם כן עשה תשובה.
(טור ומרדכי פרק "כיצד", ובהגהות מיימוני פרק שישי דהלכות ממרים.)
There is a very good Hakira article on this subject.
edited Dec 24 '18 at 11:54
Al Berko
5,707528
answered Dec 24 '18 at 0:32
samsam
26.1k14899
The Shulchan Aruch 240:18 discusses a father who is a Rasha. The Mechaber holds that there is Kibud av by a Rasha (not defined), but Ram"a argues.
ממזר חייב בכבוד אביו ובמוראו. אפילו היה אביו רשע ובעל עבירות – מכבדו ומתיירא ממנו.
הגה: ויש אומרים דאינו מחוייב לכבד אביו רשע, אלא אם כן עשה תשובה.
(טור ומרדכי פרק "כיצד", ובהגהות מיימוני פרק שישי דהלכות ממרים.)
There is a very good Hakira article on this subject.
edited Dec 24 '18 at 11:54
Al Berko
5,707528
answered Dec 24 '18 at 0:32
samsam
26.1k14899
edited Dec 24 '18 at 11:54
Al Berko
5,707528
edited Dec 24 '18 at 11:54
Al Berko
5,707528
edited Dec 24 '18 at 11:54
Al Berko
5,707528
5,707528
answered Dec 24 '18 at 0:32
samsam
26.1k14899
answered Dec 24 '18 at 0:32
samsam
26.1k14899
answered Dec 24 '18 at 0:32
samsam
26.1k14899
26.1k14899
2
Good answer, +1. Consider summarizing some of the points in the article.
– רבות מחשבות
Dec 24 '18 at 5:10
1. Thank you. 2. Do we say then that Sefardim honor anyway and Ashkenazis are exempt? :) How does יש אמרים value? I read Tur but he sounds very distant - a very weak proof (from a stolen cow...). 2.5 A very serious (albeit a bit biased) article. I also think it's worth to try to summarize it to the answer would be full and exhaustive.
– Al Berko
Dec 24 '18 at 12:00
add a comment |
2
Good answer, +1. Consider summarizing some of the points in the article.
– רבות מחשבות
Dec 24 '18 at 5:10
1. Thank you. 2. Do we say then that Sefardim honor anyway and Ashkenazis are exempt? :) How does יש אמרים value? I read Tur but he sounds very distant - a very weak proof (from a stolen cow...). 2.5 A very serious (albeit a bit biased) article. I also think it's worth to try to summarize it to the answer would be full and exhaustive.
– Al Berko
Dec 24 '18 at 12:00
2
2
Good answer, +1. Consider summarizing some of the points in the article.
– רבות מחשבות
Dec 24 '18 at 5:10
Good answer, +1. Consider summarizing some of the points in the article.
– רבות מחשבות
Dec 24 '18 at 5:10
1. Thank you. 2. Do we say then that Sefardim honor anyway and Ashkenazis are exempt? :) How does יש אמרים value? I read Tur but he sounds very distant - a very weak proof (from a stolen cow...). 2.5 A very serious (albeit a bit biased) article. I also think it's worth to try to summarize it to the answer would be full and exhaustive.
– Al Berko
Dec 24 '18 at 12:00
1. Thank you. 2. Do we say then that Sefardim honor anyway and Ashkenazis are exempt? :) How does יש אמרים value? I read Tur but he sounds very distant - a very weak proof (from a stolen cow...). 2.5 A very serious (albeit a bit biased) article. I also think it's worth to try to summarize it to the answer would be full and exhaustive.
– Al Berko
Dec 24 '18 at 12:00
add a comment |
I think one can shed light on this issue by examining the sources regarding the term "honor" (sometimes translated also as "respect").
No where does it say to love, appreciate, etc etc. In fact I heard one Rabbi asked by a woman, what if the situation is so tense that every time she tries talking to her mother, things get dicey, and it seems her mother doesn't even want to talk to her. The rabbi's response: you honor her by NOT talking to her...
So yes, honor is required; but look closely at what practical implications this has in halacha.
answered Dec 24 '18 at 5:38
YsiegelYsiegel
1293
add a comment |
I think one can shed light on this issue by examining the sources regarding the term "honor" (sometimes translated also as "respect").
No where does it say to love, appreciate, etc etc. In fact I heard one Rabbi asked by a woman, what if the situation is so tense that every time she tries talking to her mother, things get dicey, and it seems her mother doesn't even want to talk to her. The rabbi's response: you honor her by NOT talking to her...
So yes, honor is required; but look closely at what practical implications this has in halacha.
answered Dec 24 '18 at 5:38
YsiegelYsiegel
1293
add a comment |
I think one can shed light on this issue by examining the sources regarding the term "honor" (sometimes translated also as "respect").
No where does it say to love, appreciate, etc etc. In fact I heard one Rabbi asked by a woman, what if the situation is so tense that every time she tries talking to her mother, things get dicey, and it seems her mother doesn't even want to talk to her. The rabbi's response: you honor her by NOT talking to her...
So yes, honor is required; but look closely at what practical implications this has in halacha.
answered Dec 24 '18 at 5:38
YsiegelYsiegel
1293
I think one can shed light on this issue by examining the sources regarding the term "honor" (sometimes translated also as "respect").
No where does it say to love, appreciate, etc etc. In fact I heard one Rabbi asked by a woman, what if the situation is so tense that every time she tries talking to her mother, things get dicey, and it seems her mother doesn't even want to talk to her. The rabbi's response: you honor her by NOT talking to her...
So yes, honor is required; but look closely at what practical implications this has in halacha.
answered Dec 24 '18 at 5:38
YsiegelYsiegel
1293
answered Dec 24 '18 at 5:38
YsiegelYsiegel
1293
answered Dec 24 '18 at 5:38
YsiegelYsiegel
1293
answered Dec 24 '18 at 5:38
YsiegelYsiegel
1293
1293
add a comment |
add a comment |
"On the day that I was born, Daddy sat down and cried..."--Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia
– Gary
Dec 23 '18 at 23:43
Even a mamzer has to honor his parents, so the answer’s probably “no.”
– DonielF
Dec 24 '18 at 2:05
1
@donielF a rasha is diff,see my answer
– sam
Dec 24 '18 at 2:36
זכור... כבד. Shabbat
– kouty
Dec 24 '18 at 8:37