Club filter of $kappa$ is $kappa$-complete












2












$begingroup$


I'm trying to show that club filter of $kappa$ is $kappa$-complete for uncountable regular cardinal $kappa$:



Let $kappa$ be uncountable regular cardinal, let $C(kappa)$ be the club filter generated by $kappa$.



To show that $C(kappa)$ is $kappa$-complete it is enough to show that for every sequence $langle alpha_imid i<gammarangle$ with $gamma<kappa$ and $alpha_i$ club of $kappa$ the set $alpha=bigcap_{i<gamma}alpha_i$ is a club of $kappa$.



Showing that $alpha$ is close is easy:




If $beta_n$ is a sequence in $alpha$ then for every $i$ we that $beta_n$ is a sequence in $alpha_i$, because $alpha_i$ is a club it is close hence $lim beta_n$ is in $alpha_i$ for every $i$ so it is also in $alpha$




But I have a problem with unboundedness, my guess will be for each $lambda<kappa$ to find a sequence for each $alpha_i$ such that all of the sequences converge to some $mu>lambda$, that way $beta<muinalpha$. I think I'll have to use the fact $kappa$ is regular, but I don't know how to proceed and prove my idea.



So, is my idea correct, and if yes how can I proceed?










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$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Noting that, for every $a in kappa$ and $iin gamma$, $alpha_i cap [a, kappa)$ is club, you only need to establish that the intersection of a $gamma$ indexed family of clubs is non-empty.
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 7:14












  • $begingroup$
    @NotMike just to be sure, you are saying to look at $bigcap_{i<gamma}(alpha_icap [a,kappa))$ for $a>lambda$? But won't I run into the same problem when I will try to prove it is not empty?
    $endgroup$
    – Holo
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:19












  • $begingroup$
    Ok so, what I'm saying is, being able to prove the intersection of $gamma$ many clubs is always non-empty, automatically implies said intersection is unbounded ( why? because for each $a in kappa$, the family ${ alpha_i cap [a, kappa): i in gamma }$ consists of $gamma$ many clubs and so must have non-empty intersection.)
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:38












  • $begingroup$
    @NotMike I understand, but to prove that the intersection is not empty we need to find a sequence for each element in the intersection such that all of the sequences converge to the same point, no? So I am still stuck
    $endgroup$
    – Holo
    Dec 5 '18 at 11:14










  • $begingroup$
    Ah. I see. In this case you proceed by induction on γ<cf(κ)=κ. So trivially for γ=1 the statement holds. Now assume you've shown the result holds for each μ∈[1,γ) and consider the sequence $xi_mu = min(cap { alpha_i cap [xi_{I}+1, kappa): i in mu})$
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 11:38
















2












$begingroup$


I'm trying to show that club filter of $kappa$ is $kappa$-complete for uncountable regular cardinal $kappa$:



Let $kappa$ be uncountable regular cardinal, let $C(kappa)$ be the club filter generated by $kappa$.



To show that $C(kappa)$ is $kappa$-complete it is enough to show that for every sequence $langle alpha_imid i<gammarangle$ with $gamma<kappa$ and $alpha_i$ club of $kappa$ the set $alpha=bigcap_{i<gamma}alpha_i$ is a club of $kappa$.



Showing that $alpha$ is close is easy:




If $beta_n$ is a sequence in $alpha$ then for every $i$ we that $beta_n$ is a sequence in $alpha_i$, because $alpha_i$ is a club it is close hence $lim beta_n$ is in $alpha_i$ for every $i$ so it is also in $alpha$




But I have a problem with unboundedness, my guess will be for each $lambda<kappa$ to find a sequence for each $alpha_i$ such that all of the sequences converge to some $mu>lambda$, that way $beta<muinalpha$. I think I'll have to use the fact $kappa$ is regular, but I don't know how to proceed and prove my idea.



So, is my idea correct, and if yes how can I proceed?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Noting that, for every $a in kappa$ and $iin gamma$, $alpha_i cap [a, kappa)$ is club, you only need to establish that the intersection of a $gamma$ indexed family of clubs is non-empty.
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 7:14












  • $begingroup$
    @NotMike just to be sure, you are saying to look at $bigcap_{i<gamma}(alpha_icap [a,kappa))$ for $a>lambda$? But won't I run into the same problem when I will try to prove it is not empty?
    $endgroup$
    – Holo
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:19












  • $begingroup$
    Ok so, what I'm saying is, being able to prove the intersection of $gamma$ many clubs is always non-empty, automatically implies said intersection is unbounded ( why? because for each $a in kappa$, the family ${ alpha_i cap [a, kappa): i in gamma }$ consists of $gamma$ many clubs and so must have non-empty intersection.)
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:38












  • $begingroup$
    @NotMike I understand, but to prove that the intersection is not empty we need to find a sequence for each element in the intersection such that all of the sequences converge to the same point, no? So I am still stuck
    $endgroup$
    – Holo
    Dec 5 '18 at 11:14










  • $begingroup$
    Ah. I see. In this case you proceed by induction on γ<cf(κ)=κ. So trivially for γ=1 the statement holds. Now assume you've shown the result holds for each μ∈[1,γ) and consider the sequence $xi_mu = min(cap { alpha_i cap [xi_{I}+1, kappa): i in mu})$
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 11:38














2












2








2


1



$begingroup$


I'm trying to show that club filter of $kappa$ is $kappa$-complete for uncountable regular cardinal $kappa$:



Let $kappa$ be uncountable regular cardinal, let $C(kappa)$ be the club filter generated by $kappa$.



To show that $C(kappa)$ is $kappa$-complete it is enough to show that for every sequence $langle alpha_imid i<gammarangle$ with $gamma<kappa$ and $alpha_i$ club of $kappa$ the set $alpha=bigcap_{i<gamma}alpha_i$ is a club of $kappa$.



Showing that $alpha$ is close is easy:




If $beta_n$ is a sequence in $alpha$ then for every $i$ we that $beta_n$ is a sequence in $alpha_i$, because $alpha_i$ is a club it is close hence $lim beta_n$ is in $alpha_i$ for every $i$ so it is also in $alpha$




But I have a problem with unboundedness, my guess will be for each $lambda<kappa$ to find a sequence for each $alpha_i$ such that all of the sequences converge to some $mu>lambda$, that way $beta<muinalpha$. I think I'll have to use the fact $kappa$ is regular, but I don't know how to proceed and prove my idea.



So, is my idea correct, and if yes how can I proceed?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




I'm trying to show that club filter of $kappa$ is $kappa$-complete for uncountable regular cardinal $kappa$:



Let $kappa$ be uncountable regular cardinal, let $C(kappa)$ be the club filter generated by $kappa$.



To show that $C(kappa)$ is $kappa$-complete it is enough to show that for every sequence $langle alpha_imid i<gammarangle$ with $gamma<kappa$ and $alpha_i$ club of $kappa$ the set $alpha=bigcap_{i<gamma}alpha_i$ is a club of $kappa$.



Showing that $alpha$ is close is easy:




If $beta_n$ is a sequence in $alpha$ then for every $i$ we that $beta_n$ is a sequence in $alpha_i$, because $alpha_i$ is a club it is close hence $lim beta_n$ is in $alpha_i$ for every $i$ so it is also in $alpha$




But I have a problem with unboundedness, my guess will be for each $lambda<kappa$ to find a sequence for each $alpha_i$ such that all of the sequences converge to some $mu>lambda$, that way $beta<muinalpha$. I think I'll have to use the fact $kappa$ is regular, but I don't know how to proceed and prove my idea.



So, is my idea correct, and if yes how can I proceed?







set-theory filters






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asked Dec 4 '18 at 21:39









HoloHolo

5,60321030




5,60321030












  • $begingroup$
    Noting that, for every $a in kappa$ and $iin gamma$, $alpha_i cap [a, kappa)$ is club, you only need to establish that the intersection of a $gamma$ indexed family of clubs is non-empty.
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 7:14












  • $begingroup$
    @NotMike just to be sure, you are saying to look at $bigcap_{i<gamma}(alpha_icap [a,kappa))$ for $a>lambda$? But won't I run into the same problem when I will try to prove it is not empty?
    $endgroup$
    – Holo
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:19












  • $begingroup$
    Ok so, what I'm saying is, being able to prove the intersection of $gamma$ many clubs is always non-empty, automatically implies said intersection is unbounded ( why? because for each $a in kappa$, the family ${ alpha_i cap [a, kappa): i in gamma }$ consists of $gamma$ many clubs and so must have non-empty intersection.)
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:38












  • $begingroup$
    @NotMike I understand, but to prove that the intersection is not empty we need to find a sequence for each element in the intersection such that all of the sequences converge to the same point, no? So I am still stuck
    $endgroup$
    – Holo
    Dec 5 '18 at 11:14










  • $begingroup$
    Ah. I see. In this case you proceed by induction on γ<cf(κ)=κ. So trivially for γ=1 the statement holds. Now assume you've shown the result holds for each μ∈[1,γ) and consider the sequence $xi_mu = min(cap { alpha_i cap [xi_{I}+1, kappa): i in mu})$
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 11:38


















  • $begingroup$
    Noting that, for every $a in kappa$ and $iin gamma$, $alpha_i cap [a, kappa)$ is club, you only need to establish that the intersection of a $gamma$ indexed family of clubs is non-empty.
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 7:14












  • $begingroup$
    @NotMike just to be sure, you are saying to look at $bigcap_{i<gamma}(alpha_icap [a,kappa))$ for $a>lambda$? But won't I run into the same problem when I will try to prove it is not empty?
    $endgroup$
    – Holo
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:19












  • $begingroup$
    Ok so, what I'm saying is, being able to prove the intersection of $gamma$ many clubs is always non-empty, automatically implies said intersection is unbounded ( why? because for each $a in kappa$, the family ${ alpha_i cap [a, kappa): i in gamma }$ consists of $gamma$ many clubs and so must have non-empty intersection.)
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:38












  • $begingroup$
    @NotMike I understand, but to prove that the intersection is not empty we need to find a sequence for each element in the intersection such that all of the sequences converge to the same point, no? So I am still stuck
    $endgroup$
    – Holo
    Dec 5 '18 at 11:14










  • $begingroup$
    Ah. I see. In this case you proceed by induction on γ<cf(κ)=κ. So trivially for γ=1 the statement holds. Now assume you've shown the result holds for each μ∈[1,γ) and consider the sequence $xi_mu = min(cap { alpha_i cap [xi_{I}+1, kappa): i in mu})$
    $endgroup$
    – Not Mike
    Dec 5 '18 at 11:38
















$begingroup$
Noting that, for every $a in kappa$ and $iin gamma$, $alpha_i cap [a, kappa)$ is club, you only need to establish that the intersection of a $gamma$ indexed family of clubs is non-empty.
$endgroup$
– Not Mike
Dec 5 '18 at 7:14






$begingroup$
Noting that, for every $a in kappa$ and $iin gamma$, $alpha_i cap [a, kappa)$ is club, you only need to establish that the intersection of a $gamma$ indexed family of clubs is non-empty.
$endgroup$
– Not Mike
Dec 5 '18 at 7:14














$begingroup$
@NotMike just to be sure, you are saying to look at $bigcap_{i<gamma}(alpha_icap [a,kappa))$ for $a>lambda$? But won't I run into the same problem when I will try to prove it is not empty?
$endgroup$
– Holo
Dec 5 '18 at 10:19






$begingroup$
@NotMike just to be sure, you are saying to look at $bigcap_{i<gamma}(alpha_icap [a,kappa))$ for $a>lambda$? But won't I run into the same problem when I will try to prove it is not empty?
$endgroup$
– Holo
Dec 5 '18 at 10:19














$begingroup$
Ok so, what I'm saying is, being able to prove the intersection of $gamma$ many clubs is always non-empty, automatically implies said intersection is unbounded ( why? because for each $a in kappa$, the family ${ alpha_i cap [a, kappa): i in gamma }$ consists of $gamma$ many clubs and so must have non-empty intersection.)
$endgroup$
– Not Mike
Dec 5 '18 at 10:38






$begingroup$
Ok so, what I'm saying is, being able to prove the intersection of $gamma$ many clubs is always non-empty, automatically implies said intersection is unbounded ( why? because for each $a in kappa$, the family ${ alpha_i cap [a, kappa): i in gamma }$ consists of $gamma$ many clubs and so must have non-empty intersection.)
$endgroup$
– Not Mike
Dec 5 '18 at 10:38














$begingroup$
@NotMike I understand, but to prove that the intersection is not empty we need to find a sequence for each element in the intersection such that all of the sequences converge to the same point, no? So I am still stuck
$endgroup$
– Holo
Dec 5 '18 at 11:14




$begingroup$
@NotMike I understand, but to prove that the intersection is not empty we need to find a sequence for each element in the intersection such that all of the sequences converge to the same point, no? So I am still stuck
$endgroup$
– Holo
Dec 5 '18 at 11:14












$begingroup$
Ah. I see. In this case you proceed by induction on γ<cf(κ)=κ. So trivially for γ=1 the statement holds. Now assume you've shown the result holds for each μ∈[1,γ) and consider the sequence $xi_mu = min(cap { alpha_i cap [xi_{I}+1, kappa): i in mu})$
$endgroup$
– Not Mike
Dec 5 '18 at 11:38




$begingroup$
Ah. I see. In this case you proceed by induction on γ<cf(κ)=κ. So trivially for γ=1 the statement holds. Now assume you've shown the result holds for each μ∈[1,γ) and consider the sequence $xi_mu = min(cap { alpha_i cap [xi_{I}+1, kappa): i in mu})$
$endgroup$
– Not Mike
Dec 5 '18 at 11:38










1 Answer
1






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oldest

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1












$begingroup$

Here is a possible approach, to begin with you need to prove that the intersection of two club sets in $kappa$ is still a club set, which I'll leave for you since it's an easier case.



Once this is done we can prove that if $kappa$ is regular, $gamma<kappa$ and $(C_alphamid alpha<gamma)$ is a sequence of clubs in $kappa$ then $bigcap C_i$ is also a club in $kappa$, by induction on $gamma$.



The successor case follows easily from the fact I stated above about the intersection of two clubs, so we concentrate on the case in which $gamma$ is a limit ordinal.
Note that by replacing $C_alpha$ with $bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha} C_lambda$ we can assume that $C_0supseteq C_1supseteq C_2supseteqcdots$, since we didn't change the intersection, that is $$bigcap_{alpha<gamma}C_alpha=bigcap_{alpha<gamma}bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha}C_{lambda}.$$



We can now construct the needed sequence of length $gamma$. We fix $beta<kappa$, pick $beta_0>beta$ and for every $lambda<gamma$ we pick $beta_lambdain C_lambda$ with $beta_lambda>sup{beta_ximid xi<lambda}$ (which exist since every $C_alpha$ is unbounded). Since $kappa$ is regular we have that the sup of this sequence, call it $hat{beta}$ is still smaller than $kappa$, furthermore $hat{beta}$ is a limit point of every $C_alpha$, namely it is the limit of the sequence $(beta_{nu}mid alphaleqnu<gamma)subseteq C_alpha$, so $hat{beta}in C_alpha$ for every $alpha$ and $hat{beta}inbigcap C_alpha$.



Note that we don't really need regularity here, if $kappa$ is singular, as long as $operatorname{cof}(kappa)>omega$, the club filter on $kappa$ is still $operatorname{cof}(kappa)$ complete, by exactly the same argument, replacing $gamma<kappa$ with $gamma<operatorname{cof}(kappa)$.






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    $begingroup$

    Here is a possible approach, to begin with you need to prove that the intersection of two club sets in $kappa$ is still a club set, which I'll leave for you since it's an easier case.



    Once this is done we can prove that if $kappa$ is regular, $gamma<kappa$ and $(C_alphamid alpha<gamma)$ is a sequence of clubs in $kappa$ then $bigcap C_i$ is also a club in $kappa$, by induction on $gamma$.



    The successor case follows easily from the fact I stated above about the intersection of two clubs, so we concentrate on the case in which $gamma$ is a limit ordinal.
    Note that by replacing $C_alpha$ with $bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha} C_lambda$ we can assume that $C_0supseteq C_1supseteq C_2supseteqcdots$, since we didn't change the intersection, that is $$bigcap_{alpha<gamma}C_alpha=bigcap_{alpha<gamma}bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha}C_{lambda}.$$



    We can now construct the needed sequence of length $gamma$. We fix $beta<kappa$, pick $beta_0>beta$ and for every $lambda<gamma$ we pick $beta_lambdain C_lambda$ with $beta_lambda>sup{beta_ximid xi<lambda}$ (which exist since every $C_alpha$ is unbounded). Since $kappa$ is regular we have that the sup of this sequence, call it $hat{beta}$ is still smaller than $kappa$, furthermore $hat{beta}$ is a limit point of every $C_alpha$, namely it is the limit of the sequence $(beta_{nu}mid alphaleqnu<gamma)subseteq C_alpha$, so $hat{beta}in C_alpha$ for every $alpha$ and $hat{beta}inbigcap C_alpha$.



    Note that we don't really need regularity here, if $kappa$ is singular, as long as $operatorname{cof}(kappa)>omega$, the club filter on $kappa$ is still $operatorname{cof}(kappa)$ complete, by exactly the same argument, replacing $gamma<kappa$ with $gamma<operatorname{cof}(kappa)$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$


















      1












      $begingroup$

      Here is a possible approach, to begin with you need to prove that the intersection of two club sets in $kappa$ is still a club set, which I'll leave for you since it's an easier case.



      Once this is done we can prove that if $kappa$ is regular, $gamma<kappa$ and $(C_alphamid alpha<gamma)$ is a sequence of clubs in $kappa$ then $bigcap C_i$ is also a club in $kappa$, by induction on $gamma$.



      The successor case follows easily from the fact I stated above about the intersection of two clubs, so we concentrate on the case in which $gamma$ is a limit ordinal.
      Note that by replacing $C_alpha$ with $bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha} C_lambda$ we can assume that $C_0supseteq C_1supseteq C_2supseteqcdots$, since we didn't change the intersection, that is $$bigcap_{alpha<gamma}C_alpha=bigcap_{alpha<gamma}bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha}C_{lambda}.$$



      We can now construct the needed sequence of length $gamma$. We fix $beta<kappa$, pick $beta_0>beta$ and for every $lambda<gamma$ we pick $beta_lambdain C_lambda$ with $beta_lambda>sup{beta_ximid xi<lambda}$ (which exist since every $C_alpha$ is unbounded). Since $kappa$ is regular we have that the sup of this sequence, call it $hat{beta}$ is still smaller than $kappa$, furthermore $hat{beta}$ is a limit point of every $C_alpha$, namely it is the limit of the sequence $(beta_{nu}mid alphaleqnu<gamma)subseteq C_alpha$, so $hat{beta}in C_alpha$ for every $alpha$ and $hat{beta}inbigcap C_alpha$.



      Note that we don't really need regularity here, if $kappa$ is singular, as long as $operatorname{cof}(kappa)>omega$, the club filter on $kappa$ is still $operatorname{cof}(kappa)$ complete, by exactly the same argument, replacing $gamma<kappa$ with $gamma<operatorname{cof}(kappa)$.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$
















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        Here is a possible approach, to begin with you need to prove that the intersection of two club sets in $kappa$ is still a club set, which I'll leave for you since it's an easier case.



        Once this is done we can prove that if $kappa$ is regular, $gamma<kappa$ and $(C_alphamid alpha<gamma)$ is a sequence of clubs in $kappa$ then $bigcap C_i$ is also a club in $kappa$, by induction on $gamma$.



        The successor case follows easily from the fact I stated above about the intersection of two clubs, so we concentrate on the case in which $gamma$ is a limit ordinal.
        Note that by replacing $C_alpha$ with $bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha} C_lambda$ we can assume that $C_0supseteq C_1supseteq C_2supseteqcdots$, since we didn't change the intersection, that is $$bigcap_{alpha<gamma}C_alpha=bigcap_{alpha<gamma}bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha}C_{lambda}.$$



        We can now construct the needed sequence of length $gamma$. We fix $beta<kappa$, pick $beta_0>beta$ and for every $lambda<gamma$ we pick $beta_lambdain C_lambda$ with $beta_lambda>sup{beta_ximid xi<lambda}$ (which exist since every $C_alpha$ is unbounded). Since $kappa$ is regular we have that the sup of this sequence, call it $hat{beta}$ is still smaller than $kappa$, furthermore $hat{beta}$ is a limit point of every $C_alpha$, namely it is the limit of the sequence $(beta_{nu}mid alphaleqnu<gamma)subseteq C_alpha$, so $hat{beta}in C_alpha$ for every $alpha$ and $hat{beta}inbigcap C_alpha$.



        Note that we don't really need regularity here, if $kappa$ is singular, as long as $operatorname{cof}(kappa)>omega$, the club filter on $kappa$ is still $operatorname{cof}(kappa)$ complete, by exactly the same argument, replacing $gamma<kappa$ with $gamma<operatorname{cof}(kappa)$.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Here is a possible approach, to begin with you need to prove that the intersection of two club sets in $kappa$ is still a club set, which I'll leave for you since it's an easier case.



        Once this is done we can prove that if $kappa$ is regular, $gamma<kappa$ and $(C_alphamid alpha<gamma)$ is a sequence of clubs in $kappa$ then $bigcap C_i$ is also a club in $kappa$, by induction on $gamma$.



        The successor case follows easily from the fact I stated above about the intersection of two clubs, so we concentrate on the case in which $gamma$ is a limit ordinal.
        Note that by replacing $C_alpha$ with $bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha} C_lambda$ we can assume that $C_0supseteq C_1supseteq C_2supseteqcdots$, since we didn't change the intersection, that is $$bigcap_{alpha<gamma}C_alpha=bigcap_{alpha<gamma}bigcap_{lambdaleqalpha}C_{lambda}.$$



        We can now construct the needed sequence of length $gamma$. We fix $beta<kappa$, pick $beta_0>beta$ and for every $lambda<gamma$ we pick $beta_lambdain C_lambda$ with $beta_lambda>sup{beta_ximid xi<lambda}$ (which exist since every $C_alpha$ is unbounded). Since $kappa$ is regular we have that the sup of this sequence, call it $hat{beta}$ is still smaller than $kappa$, furthermore $hat{beta}$ is a limit point of every $C_alpha$, namely it is the limit of the sequence $(beta_{nu}mid alphaleqnu<gamma)subseteq C_alpha$, so $hat{beta}in C_alpha$ for every $alpha$ and $hat{beta}inbigcap C_alpha$.



        Note that we don't really need regularity here, if $kappa$ is singular, as long as $operatorname{cof}(kappa)>omega$, the club filter on $kappa$ is still $operatorname{cof}(kappa)$ complete, by exactly the same argument, replacing $gamma<kappa$ with $gamma<operatorname{cof}(kappa)$.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Dec 5 '18 at 12:58

























        answered Dec 5 '18 at 11:32









        Alessandro CodenottiAlessandro Codenotti

        3,62811438




        3,62811438






























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