What class of natural numbers known to be infinitely large occurs least frequently? [closed]












3












$begingroup$


By "class" I mean sets of natural numbers with a given specific property (i.e. prime numbers or perfect numbers). Obviously all infinitely large sets have the same "size", but for example solitary (as opposed to friendly) numbers occur more frequently than prime numbers, because prime numbers are all solitary, but there are solitary numbers that are not prime. Perfect numbers would be a great answer to this question (because they occur so infrequently) if it were proved that there are infinitely many of them, but that hasn't happened yet.



To be clear, this question is about classes of numbers with intrinsic properties that can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise, so infinite sets like the Fibonacci numbers, nth powers, and "the set of numbers that are in the range of the TREE function" are excluded.



If I had to make a guess without having asked this question, I might choose "the set of numbers for which π(x) > li(x)" (where π is the prime counting function and li is the logarithmic integral function), which was proved to be infinitely large a century ago but the first value of which has been proved to be larger than 10^19.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$



closed as unclear what you're asking by Andrés E. Caicedo, Will Jagy, Theo Bendit, KReiser, Lord Shark the Unknown Jan 7 at 4:50


Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Welcome to MSE! I am going to offer just a few critiques. "Obviously, all infinitely large sets have the same 'size.' " That sentence seems to be worth avoiding. At a minimum it's worth rewording. This isn't generically true of infinite sets. It is true of infinite subsets of the natural numbers which seems to be what your asking about. Also, I would include links to the friendly numbers and solitary numbers to make your question more accessible. I didn't know the definition of these terms.
    $endgroup$
    – Mason
    Jan 7 at 1:16






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    What classes of numbers "can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise"? How about the function $g(n)$ defined as "the $n$'th natural number in the class"?
    $endgroup$
    – Robert Israel
    Jan 7 at 1:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I have no idea what the second paragraph is actually trying to explain. Seems meaningless as currently phrased. You seem to have excluded everything.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Jan 7 at 1:19






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    It's hard to give a solid answer about "least" frequent class of numbers, as one can always (somewhat artificially) remove every second number from a given class and obtain a class that occurs "less" frequently. Also, the distinction about classes "generated by functions" is extremely artificial. Even the primes could be expressed as, say, the set of $n$ such that $n - varphi(n) = 1$, where $varphi$ is Euler's Totient function.
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Bendit
    Jan 7 at 1:20








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Yeah. So the $n$th prime number is given by whatever function does that. That is $f(n)=p_n$ where $p_n$ is the $n$th prime number is this function. What you might mean is that there isn't such a pretty algorithm that does this... (by the way there is an algorithm that does this and halts in finite time). I think you might enjoy a primer on computational complexity. I think that is probably the route you'll have to take to formalize your question.
    $endgroup$
    – Mason
    Jan 7 at 1:24


















3












$begingroup$


By "class" I mean sets of natural numbers with a given specific property (i.e. prime numbers or perfect numbers). Obviously all infinitely large sets have the same "size", but for example solitary (as opposed to friendly) numbers occur more frequently than prime numbers, because prime numbers are all solitary, but there are solitary numbers that are not prime. Perfect numbers would be a great answer to this question (because they occur so infrequently) if it were proved that there are infinitely many of them, but that hasn't happened yet.



To be clear, this question is about classes of numbers with intrinsic properties that can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise, so infinite sets like the Fibonacci numbers, nth powers, and "the set of numbers that are in the range of the TREE function" are excluded.



If I had to make a guess without having asked this question, I might choose "the set of numbers for which π(x) > li(x)" (where π is the prime counting function and li is the logarithmic integral function), which was proved to be infinitely large a century ago but the first value of which has been proved to be larger than 10^19.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$



closed as unclear what you're asking by Andrés E. Caicedo, Will Jagy, Theo Bendit, KReiser, Lord Shark the Unknown Jan 7 at 4:50


Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Welcome to MSE! I am going to offer just a few critiques. "Obviously, all infinitely large sets have the same 'size.' " That sentence seems to be worth avoiding. At a minimum it's worth rewording. This isn't generically true of infinite sets. It is true of infinite subsets of the natural numbers which seems to be what your asking about. Also, I would include links to the friendly numbers and solitary numbers to make your question more accessible. I didn't know the definition of these terms.
    $endgroup$
    – Mason
    Jan 7 at 1:16






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    What classes of numbers "can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise"? How about the function $g(n)$ defined as "the $n$'th natural number in the class"?
    $endgroup$
    – Robert Israel
    Jan 7 at 1:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I have no idea what the second paragraph is actually trying to explain. Seems meaningless as currently phrased. You seem to have excluded everything.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Jan 7 at 1:19






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    It's hard to give a solid answer about "least" frequent class of numbers, as one can always (somewhat artificially) remove every second number from a given class and obtain a class that occurs "less" frequently. Also, the distinction about classes "generated by functions" is extremely artificial. Even the primes could be expressed as, say, the set of $n$ such that $n - varphi(n) = 1$, where $varphi$ is Euler's Totient function.
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Bendit
    Jan 7 at 1:20








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Yeah. So the $n$th prime number is given by whatever function does that. That is $f(n)=p_n$ where $p_n$ is the $n$th prime number is this function. What you might mean is that there isn't such a pretty algorithm that does this... (by the way there is an algorithm that does this and halts in finite time). I think you might enjoy a primer on computational complexity. I think that is probably the route you'll have to take to formalize your question.
    $endgroup$
    – Mason
    Jan 7 at 1:24
















3












3








3





$begingroup$


By "class" I mean sets of natural numbers with a given specific property (i.e. prime numbers or perfect numbers). Obviously all infinitely large sets have the same "size", but for example solitary (as opposed to friendly) numbers occur more frequently than prime numbers, because prime numbers are all solitary, but there are solitary numbers that are not prime. Perfect numbers would be a great answer to this question (because they occur so infrequently) if it were proved that there are infinitely many of them, but that hasn't happened yet.



To be clear, this question is about classes of numbers with intrinsic properties that can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise, so infinite sets like the Fibonacci numbers, nth powers, and "the set of numbers that are in the range of the TREE function" are excluded.



If I had to make a guess without having asked this question, I might choose "the set of numbers for which π(x) > li(x)" (where π is the prime counting function and li is the logarithmic integral function), which was proved to be infinitely large a century ago but the first value of which has been proved to be larger than 10^19.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




By "class" I mean sets of natural numbers with a given specific property (i.e. prime numbers or perfect numbers). Obviously all infinitely large sets have the same "size", but for example solitary (as opposed to friendly) numbers occur more frequently than prime numbers, because prime numbers are all solitary, but there are solitary numbers that are not prime. Perfect numbers would be a great answer to this question (because they occur so infrequently) if it were proved that there are infinitely many of them, but that hasn't happened yet.



To be clear, this question is about classes of numbers with intrinsic properties that can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise, so infinite sets like the Fibonacci numbers, nth powers, and "the set of numbers that are in the range of the TREE function" are excluded.



If I had to make a guess without having asked this question, I might choose "the set of numbers for which π(x) > li(x)" (where π is the prime counting function and li is the logarithmic integral function), which was proved to be infinitely large a century ago but the first value of which has been proved to be larger than 10^19.







natural-numbers






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share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Jan 7 at 1:20







cbmanica

















asked Jan 7 at 1:07









cbmanicacbmanica

1163




1163




closed as unclear what you're asking by Andrés E. Caicedo, Will Jagy, Theo Bendit, KReiser, Lord Shark the Unknown Jan 7 at 4:50


Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.









closed as unclear what you're asking by Andrés E. Caicedo, Will Jagy, Theo Bendit, KReiser, Lord Shark the Unknown Jan 7 at 4:50


Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Welcome to MSE! I am going to offer just a few critiques. "Obviously, all infinitely large sets have the same 'size.' " That sentence seems to be worth avoiding. At a minimum it's worth rewording. This isn't generically true of infinite sets. It is true of infinite subsets of the natural numbers which seems to be what your asking about. Also, I would include links to the friendly numbers and solitary numbers to make your question more accessible. I didn't know the definition of these terms.
    $endgroup$
    – Mason
    Jan 7 at 1:16






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    What classes of numbers "can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise"? How about the function $g(n)$ defined as "the $n$'th natural number in the class"?
    $endgroup$
    – Robert Israel
    Jan 7 at 1:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I have no idea what the second paragraph is actually trying to explain. Seems meaningless as currently phrased. You seem to have excluded everything.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Jan 7 at 1:19






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    It's hard to give a solid answer about "least" frequent class of numbers, as one can always (somewhat artificially) remove every second number from a given class and obtain a class that occurs "less" frequently. Also, the distinction about classes "generated by functions" is extremely artificial. Even the primes could be expressed as, say, the set of $n$ such that $n - varphi(n) = 1$, where $varphi$ is Euler's Totient function.
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Bendit
    Jan 7 at 1:20








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Yeah. So the $n$th prime number is given by whatever function does that. That is $f(n)=p_n$ where $p_n$ is the $n$th prime number is this function. What you might mean is that there isn't such a pretty algorithm that does this... (by the way there is an algorithm that does this and halts in finite time). I think you might enjoy a primer on computational complexity. I think that is probably the route you'll have to take to formalize your question.
    $endgroup$
    – Mason
    Jan 7 at 1:24
















  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Welcome to MSE! I am going to offer just a few critiques. "Obviously, all infinitely large sets have the same 'size.' " That sentence seems to be worth avoiding. At a minimum it's worth rewording. This isn't generically true of infinite sets. It is true of infinite subsets of the natural numbers which seems to be what your asking about. Also, I would include links to the friendly numbers and solitary numbers to make your question more accessible. I didn't know the definition of these terms.
    $endgroup$
    – Mason
    Jan 7 at 1:16






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    What classes of numbers "can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise"? How about the function $g(n)$ defined as "the $n$'th natural number in the class"?
    $endgroup$
    – Robert Israel
    Jan 7 at 1:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I have no idea what the second paragraph is actually trying to explain. Seems meaningless as currently phrased. You seem to have excluded everything.
    $endgroup$
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Jan 7 at 1:19






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    It's hard to give a solid answer about "least" frequent class of numbers, as one can always (somewhat artificially) remove every second number from a given class and obtain a class that occurs "less" frequently. Also, the distinction about classes "generated by functions" is extremely artificial. Even the primes could be expressed as, say, the set of $n$ such that $n - varphi(n) = 1$, where $varphi$ is Euler's Totient function.
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Bendit
    Jan 7 at 1:20








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Yeah. So the $n$th prime number is given by whatever function does that. That is $f(n)=p_n$ where $p_n$ is the $n$th prime number is this function. What you might mean is that there isn't such a pretty algorithm that does this... (by the way there is an algorithm that does this and halts in finite time). I think you might enjoy a primer on computational complexity. I think that is probably the route you'll have to take to formalize your question.
    $endgroup$
    – Mason
    Jan 7 at 1:24










1




1




$begingroup$
Welcome to MSE! I am going to offer just a few critiques. "Obviously, all infinitely large sets have the same 'size.' " That sentence seems to be worth avoiding. At a minimum it's worth rewording. This isn't generically true of infinite sets. It is true of infinite subsets of the natural numbers which seems to be what your asking about. Also, I would include links to the friendly numbers and solitary numbers to make your question more accessible. I didn't know the definition of these terms.
$endgroup$
– Mason
Jan 7 at 1:16




$begingroup$
Welcome to MSE! I am going to offer just a few critiques. "Obviously, all infinitely large sets have the same 'size.' " That sentence seems to be worth avoiding. At a minimum it's worth rewording. This isn't generically true of infinite sets. It is true of infinite subsets of the natural numbers which seems to be what your asking about. Also, I would include links to the friendly numbers and solitary numbers to make your question more accessible. I didn't know the definition of these terms.
$endgroup$
– Mason
Jan 7 at 1:16




3




3




$begingroup$
What classes of numbers "can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise"? How about the function $g(n)$ defined as "the $n$'th natural number in the class"?
$endgroup$
– Robert Israel
Jan 7 at 1:18




$begingroup$
What classes of numbers "can't be generated by a function, computable or otherwise"? How about the function $g(n)$ defined as "the $n$'th natural number in the class"?
$endgroup$
– Robert Israel
Jan 7 at 1:18




2




2




$begingroup$
I have no idea what the second paragraph is actually trying to explain. Seems meaningless as currently phrased. You seem to have excluded everything.
$endgroup$
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Jan 7 at 1:19




$begingroup$
I have no idea what the second paragraph is actually trying to explain. Seems meaningless as currently phrased. You seem to have excluded everything.
$endgroup$
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Jan 7 at 1:19




2




2




$begingroup$
It's hard to give a solid answer about "least" frequent class of numbers, as one can always (somewhat artificially) remove every second number from a given class and obtain a class that occurs "less" frequently. Also, the distinction about classes "generated by functions" is extremely artificial. Even the primes could be expressed as, say, the set of $n$ such that $n - varphi(n) = 1$, where $varphi$ is Euler's Totient function.
$endgroup$
– Theo Bendit
Jan 7 at 1:20






$begingroup$
It's hard to give a solid answer about "least" frequent class of numbers, as one can always (somewhat artificially) remove every second number from a given class and obtain a class that occurs "less" frequently. Also, the distinction about classes "generated by functions" is extremely artificial. Even the primes could be expressed as, say, the set of $n$ such that $n - varphi(n) = 1$, where $varphi$ is Euler's Totient function.
$endgroup$
– Theo Bendit
Jan 7 at 1:20






2




2




$begingroup$
Yeah. So the $n$th prime number is given by whatever function does that. That is $f(n)=p_n$ where $p_n$ is the $n$th prime number is this function. What you might mean is that there isn't such a pretty algorithm that does this... (by the way there is an algorithm that does this and halts in finite time). I think you might enjoy a primer on computational complexity. I think that is probably the route you'll have to take to formalize your question.
$endgroup$
– Mason
Jan 7 at 1:24






$begingroup$
Yeah. So the $n$th prime number is given by whatever function does that. That is $f(n)=p_n$ where $p_n$ is the $n$th prime number is this function. What you might mean is that there isn't such a pretty algorithm that does this... (by the way there is an algorithm that does this and halts in finite time). I think you might enjoy a primer on computational complexity. I think that is probably the route you'll have to take to formalize your question.
$endgroup$
– Mason
Jan 7 at 1:24












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















5












$begingroup$

What a fun chain of comments you have; allow me to add some insight that is probably too large to be a comment itself.



The phrase "least frequently" that you used could possibly be best interpreted to refer to the natural density of your class of naturals. This is probably the first and most natural idea that everyone comes up with when forced to pin down the intuitive idea that "there are twice as many natural numbers as there are even natural numbers".



There are some problems with this concept when it comes to your question however. For one, the natural density of a set of naturals need not exist; the upper and lower densities might not be equal. But even among those classes that have well defined natural densities, many will end up with the same density (particularly $0$) despite being more or less "rare" than others. You could of course try to generalize the notion of natural density to other types of density functions (as they do on the bottom of the page), but I think trying to define a kind of "relative density" might be easier and more naturally capture the idea of when a class is "more rare" or "more common" than another.



What might such a definition look like? Perhaps...



Let $A,Bsubseteqmathbb{N}$ be two nonempty sets (possibly finite) of natural numbers, and define $A(n)={1,ldots,n}cap A$, $B(n)={1,ldots,n}cap B$, $a(n)=|A(n)|$, and $b(n)=|B(n)|$.



The upper relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
overline{rd}(A,B)=limsup_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The lower relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
underline{rd}(A,B)=liminf_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is (if it exists) then defined to be:
$$
rd(A,B)=lim_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$



With these definitions you recover normal natural density arguments when $B=mathbb{N}$, but you can also make meaningful distinctions between the "rarity" of classes of numbers like $A$ being the set of primes and $B$ being the set of primes of even index. Both have natural density $0$, but "clearly" it is also the case that primes are "twice as common" as primes of even index.



If you want to run with these ideas, we can then definitively answer your original question; there is no such thing as the least frequent infinite class of natural numbers. I can always cut my sets finer and finer to get more and more rare, and I can even make this idea rigorous through the use of these relative density arguments.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    As a final remark, this argument will resolve the question regardless of which classes of natural numbers finally pass muster. Right now it is unclear what the OP wants to count as "intrinsic", but there are only two cases to consider: if it ends up that no subsets of naturals are "intrinsically defined", then the problem is vacuous. If there is at least one set $A$ which fits the bill, there are infinitely many; order the elements of $A$ in increasing order and then take subsets of odd and even indices. At least one of these must also be "intrinsic", and we can repeat ad infinitum.
    $endgroup$
    – ItsJustCountingBro
    Jan 7 at 4:07




















1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









5












$begingroup$

What a fun chain of comments you have; allow me to add some insight that is probably too large to be a comment itself.



The phrase "least frequently" that you used could possibly be best interpreted to refer to the natural density of your class of naturals. This is probably the first and most natural idea that everyone comes up with when forced to pin down the intuitive idea that "there are twice as many natural numbers as there are even natural numbers".



There are some problems with this concept when it comes to your question however. For one, the natural density of a set of naturals need not exist; the upper and lower densities might not be equal. But even among those classes that have well defined natural densities, many will end up with the same density (particularly $0$) despite being more or less "rare" than others. You could of course try to generalize the notion of natural density to other types of density functions (as they do on the bottom of the page), but I think trying to define a kind of "relative density" might be easier and more naturally capture the idea of when a class is "more rare" or "more common" than another.



What might such a definition look like? Perhaps...



Let $A,Bsubseteqmathbb{N}$ be two nonempty sets (possibly finite) of natural numbers, and define $A(n)={1,ldots,n}cap A$, $B(n)={1,ldots,n}cap B$, $a(n)=|A(n)|$, and $b(n)=|B(n)|$.



The upper relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
overline{rd}(A,B)=limsup_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The lower relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
underline{rd}(A,B)=liminf_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is (if it exists) then defined to be:
$$
rd(A,B)=lim_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$



With these definitions you recover normal natural density arguments when $B=mathbb{N}$, but you can also make meaningful distinctions between the "rarity" of classes of numbers like $A$ being the set of primes and $B$ being the set of primes of even index. Both have natural density $0$, but "clearly" it is also the case that primes are "twice as common" as primes of even index.



If you want to run with these ideas, we can then definitively answer your original question; there is no such thing as the least frequent infinite class of natural numbers. I can always cut my sets finer and finer to get more and more rare, and I can even make this idea rigorous through the use of these relative density arguments.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    As a final remark, this argument will resolve the question regardless of which classes of natural numbers finally pass muster. Right now it is unclear what the OP wants to count as "intrinsic", but there are only two cases to consider: if it ends up that no subsets of naturals are "intrinsically defined", then the problem is vacuous. If there is at least one set $A$ which fits the bill, there are infinitely many; order the elements of $A$ in increasing order and then take subsets of odd and even indices. At least one of these must also be "intrinsic", and we can repeat ad infinitum.
    $endgroup$
    – ItsJustCountingBro
    Jan 7 at 4:07


















5












$begingroup$

What a fun chain of comments you have; allow me to add some insight that is probably too large to be a comment itself.



The phrase "least frequently" that you used could possibly be best interpreted to refer to the natural density of your class of naturals. This is probably the first and most natural idea that everyone comes up with when forced to pin down the intuitive idea that "there are twice as many natural numbers as there are even natural numbers".



There are some problems with this concept when it comes to your question however. For one, the natural density of a set of naturals need not exist; the upper and lower densities might not be equal. But even among those classes that have well defined natural densities, many will end up with the same density (particularly $0$) despite being more or less "rare" than others. You could of course try to generalize the notion of natural density to other types of density functions (as they do on the bottom of the page), but I think trying to define a kind of "relative density" might be easier and more naturally capture the idea of when a class is "more rare" or "more common" than another.



What might such a definition look like? Perhaps...



Let $A,Bsubseteqmathbb{N}$ be two nonempty sets (possibly finite) of natural numbers, and define $A(n)={1,ldots,n}cap A$, $B(n)={1,ldots,n}cap B$, $a(n)=|A(n)|$, and $b(n)=|B(n)|$.



The upper relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
overline{rd}(A,B)=limsup_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The lower relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
underline{rd}(A,B)=liminf_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is (if it exists) then defined to be:
$$
rd(A,B)=lim_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$



With these definitions you recover normal natural density arguments when $B=mathbb{N}$, but you can also make meaningful distinctions between the "rarity" of classes of numbers like $A$ being the set of primes and $B$ being the set of primes of even index. Both have natural density $0$, but "clearly" it is also the case that primes are "twice as common" as primes of even index.



If you want to run with these ideas, we can then definitively answer your original question; there is no such thing as the least frequent infinite class of natural numbers. I can always cut my sets finer and finer to get more and more rare, and I can even make this idea rigorous through the use of these relative density arguments.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    As a final remark, this argument will resolve the question regardless of which classes of natural numbers finally pass muster. Right now it is unclear what the OP wants to count as "intrinsic", but there are only two cases to consider: if it ends up that no subsets of naturals are "intrinsically defined", then the problem is vacuous. If there is at least one set $A$ which fits the bill, there are infinitely many; order the elements of $A$ in increasing order and then take subsets of odd and even indices. At least one of these must also be "intrinsic", and we can repeat ad infinitum.
    $endgroup$
    – ItsJustCountingBro
    Jan 7 at 4:07
















5












5








5





$begingroup$

What a fun chain of comments you have; allow me to add some insight that is probably too large to be a comment itself.



The phrase "least frequently" that you used could possibly be best interpreted to refer to the natural density of your class of naturals. This is probably the first and most natural idea that everyone comes up with when forced to pin down the intuitive idea that "there are twice as many natural numbers as there are even natural numbers".



There are some problems with this concept when it comes to your question however. For one, the natural density of a set of naturals need not exist; the upper and lower densities might not be equal. But even among those classes that have well defined natural densities, many will end up with the same density (particularly $0$) despite being more or less "rare" than others. You could of course try to generalize the notion of natural density to other types of density functions (as they do on the bottom of the page), but I think trying to define a kind of "relative density" might be easier and more naturally capture the idea of when a class is "more rare" or "more common" than another.



What might such a definition look like? Perhaps...



Let $A,Bsubseteqmathbb{N}$ be two nonempty sets (possibly finite) of natural numbers, and define $A(n)={1,ldots,n}cap A$, $B(n)={1,ldots,n}cap B$, $a(n)=|A(n)|$, and $b(n)=|B(n)|$.



The upper relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
overline{rd}(A,B)=limsup_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The lower relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
underline{rd}(A,B)=liminf_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is (if it exists) then defined to be:
$$
rd(A,B)=lim_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$



With these definitions you recover normal natural density arguments when $B=mathbb{N}$, but you can also make meaningful distinctions between the "rarity" of classes of numbers like $A$ being the set of primes and $B$ being the set of primes of even index. Both have natural density $0$, but "clearly" it is also the case that primes are "twice as common" as primes of even index.



If you want to run with these ideas, we can then definitively answer your original question; there is no such thing as the least frequent infinite class of natural numbers. I can always cut my sets finer and finer to get more and more rare, and I can even make this idea rigorous through the use of these relative density arguments.






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$endgroup$



What a fun chain of comments you have; allow me to add some insight that is probably too large to be a comment itself.



The phrase "least frequently" that you used could possibly be best interpreted to refer to the natural density of your class of naturals. This is probably the first and most natural idea that everyone comes up with when forced to pin down the intuitive idea that "there are twice as many natural numbers as there are even natural numbers".



There are some problems with this concept when it comes to your question however. For one, the natural density of a set of naturals need not exist; the upper and lower densities might not be equal. But even among those classes that have well defined natural densities, many will end up with the same density (particularly $0$) despite being more or less "rare" than others. You could of course try to generalize the notion of natural density to other types of density functions (as they do on the bottom of the page), but I think trying to define a kind of "relative density" might be easier and more naturally capture the idea of when a class is "more rare" or "more common" than another.



What might such a definition look like? Perhaps...



Let $A,Bsubseteqmathbb{N}$ be two nonempty sets (possibly finite) of natural numbers, and define $A(n)={1,ldots,n}cap A$, $B(n)={1,ldots,n}cap B$, $a(n)=|A(n)|$, and $b(n)=|B(n)|$.



The upper relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
overline{rd}(A,B)=limsup_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The lower relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is then defined to be:
$$
underline{rd}(A,B)=liminf_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$

The relative natural density of $A$ to $B$ is (if it exists) then defined to be:
$$
rd(A,B)=lim_{nrightarrowinfty}frac{a(n)}{b(n)}
$$



With these definitions you recover normal natural density arguments when $B=mathbb{N}$, but you can also make meaningful distinctions between the "rarity" of classes of numbers like $A$ being the set of primes and $B$ being the set of primes of even index. Both have natural density $0$, but "clearly" it is also the case that primes are "twice as common" as primes of even index.



If you want to run with these ideas, we can then definitively answer your original question; there is no such thing as the least frequent infinite class of natural numbers. I can always cut my sets finer and finer to get more and more rare, and I can even make this idea rigorous through the use of these relative density arguments.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Jan 7 at 10:24

























answered Jan 7 at 3:27









ItsJustCountingBroItsJustCountingBro

512




512












  • $begingroup$
    As a final remark, this argument will resolve the question regardless of which classes of natural numbers finally pass muster. Right now it is unclear what the OP wants to count as "intrinsic", but there are only two cases to consider: if it ends up that no subsets of naturals are "intrinsically defined", then the problem is vacuous. If there is at least one set $A$ which fits the bill, there are infinitely many; order the elements of $A$ in increasing order and then take subsets of odd and even indices. At least one of these must also be "intrinsic", and we can repeat ad infinitum.
    $endgroup$
    – ItsJustCountingBro
    Jan 7 at 4:07




















  • $begingroup$
    As a final remark, this argument will resolve the question regardless of which classes of natural numbers finally pass muster. Right now it is unclear what the OP wants to count as "intrinsic", but there are only two cases to consider: if it ends up that no subsets of naturals are "intrinsically defined", then the problem is vacuous. If there is at least one set $A$ which fits the bill, there are infinitely many; order the elements of $A$ in increasing order and then take subsets of odd and even indices. At least one of these must also be "intrinsic", and we can repeat ad infinitum.
    $endgroup$
    – ItsJustCountingBro
    Jan 7 at 4:07


















$begingroup$
As a final remark, this argument will resolve the question regardless of which classes of natural numbers finally pass muster. Right now it is unclear what the OP wants to count as "intrinsic", but there are only two cases to consider: if it ends up that no subsets of naturals are "intrinsically defined", then the problem is vacuous. If there is at least one set $A$ which fits the bill, there are infinitely many; order the elements of $A$ in increasing order and then take subsets of odd and even indices. At least one of these must also be "intrinsic", and we can repeat ad infinitum.
$endgroup$
– ItsJustCountingBro
Jan 7 at 4:07






$begingroup$
As a final remark, this argument will resolve the question regardless of which classes of natural numbers finally pass muster. Right now it is unclear what the OP wants to count as "intrinsic", but there are only two cases to consider: if it ends up that no subsets of naturals are "intrinsically defined", then the problem is vacuous. If there is at least one set $A$ which fits the bill, there are infinitely many; order the elements of $A$ in increasing order and then take subsets of odd and even indices. At least one of these must also be "intrinsic", and we can repeat ad infinitum.
$endgroup$
– ItsJustCountingBro
Jan 7 at 4:07





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