Do we need the Axiom of Choice to guarantee surjectiveness of projections?











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Given a collection ${X_{alpha}}_{alphainOmega}$ of non-empty sets, do we need the Axiom of Choice to ensure that the projections
$$pi_{gamma}:prod_{alpha}X_{alpha}longrightarrow X_{gamma}$$
are surjective??



Given $Asubseteq X_{gamma}$ its preimage $pi_{gamma}^{-1}(A)$ is $Atimesleft(prod_{alphanegamma}X_{alpha}right)$.



When $Omega$ is finite we can choose elements $x_{alpha}$ in each one of the $X_{alpha}$ ($alphanegamma$) to get an $n$-tuple such that $x_{gamma}in X_{gamma}$ but what if $Omega$ isn't finite or even countable infinite? The fact that $pi_gamma$ is surjective would mean we can choose elements from the collection (using the AC).



Is it valid to say "for all" $x_{alpha}in X_{alpha}$ with $alphanegamma$ and some $x_gammain X_gamma$ then $f:Omegatobigcup_{alpha}X_{alpha}$ such that $f(alpha)=x_alpha$ for every $alphainOmega$ is a member of $prod_alpha X_alpha$ ?



Thanks










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  • 2




    If $prod_alpha X_alpha$ is empty, then $pi_gamma$ is not surjective. That all such projections are nonempty is just a reformulation of the statement that product are nonempty, which is precisely the axiom of choice. I do not understand your last paragraph.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 22 at 19:38










  • @AndrésE.Caicedo the last paragraph is maybe a (probably wrong ) way to avoid the axiom of choice.
    – Pedro
    Nov 22 at 19:41















up vote
1
down vote

favorite












Given a collection ${X_{alpha}}_{alphainOmega}$ of non-empty sets, do we need the Axiom of Choice to ensure that the projections
$$pi_{gamma}:prod_{alpha}X_{alpha}longrightarrow X_{gamma}$$
are surjective??



Given $Asubseteq X_{gamma}$ its preimage $pi_{gamma}^{-1}(A)$ is $Atimesleft(prod_{alphanegamma}X_{alpha}right)$.



When $Omega$ is finite we can choose elements $x_{alpha}$ in each one of the $X_{alpha}$ ($alphanegamma$) to get an $n$-tuple such that $x_{gamma}in X_{gamma}$ but what if $Omega$ isn't finite or even countable infinite? The fact that $pi_gamma$ is surjective would mean we can choose elements from the collection (using the AC).



Is it valid to say "for all" $x_{alpha}in X_{alpha}$ with $alphanegamma$ and some $x_gammain X_gamma$ then $f:Omegatobigcup_{alpha}X_{alpha}$ such that $f(alpha)=x_alpha$ for every $alphainOmega$ is a member of $prod_alpha X_alpha$ ?



Thanks










share|cite|improve this question


















  • 2




    If $prod_alpha X_alpha$ is empty, then $pi_gamma$ is not surjective. That all such projections are nonempty is just a reformulation of the statement that product are nonempty, which is precisely the axiom of choice. I do not understand your last paragraph.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 22 at 19:38










  • @AndrésE.Caicedo the last paragraph is maybe a (probably wrong ) way to avoid the axiom of choice.
    – Pedro
    Nov 22 at 19:41













up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











Given a collection ${X_{alpha}}_{alphainOmega}$ of non-empty sets, do we need the Axiom of Choice to ensure that the projections
$$pi_{gamma}:prod_{alpha}X_{alpha}longrightarrow X_{gamma}$$
are surjective??



Given $Asubseteq X_{gamma}$ its preimage $pi_{gamma}^{-1}(A)$ is $Atimesleft(prod_{alphanegamma}X_{alpha}right)$.



When $Omega$ is finite we can choose elements $x_{alpha}$ in each one of the $X_{alpha}$ ($alphanegamma$) to get an $n$-tuple such that $x_{gamma}in X_{gamma}$ but what if $Omega$ isn't finite or even countable infinite? The fact that $pi_gamma$ is surjective would mean we can choose elements from the collection (using the AC).



Is it valid to say "for all" $x_{alpha}in X_{alpha}$ with $alphanegamma$ and some $x_gammain X_gamma$ then $f:Omegatobigcup_{alpha}X_{alpha}$ such that $f(alpha)=x_alpha$ for every $alphainOmega$ is a member of $prod_alpha X_alpha$ ?



Thanks










share|cite|improve this question













Given a collection ${X_{alpha}}_{alphainOmega}$ of non-empty sets, do we need the Axiom of Choice to ensure that the projections
$$pi_{gamma}:prod_{alpha}X_{alpha}longrightarrow X_{gamma}$$
are surjective??



Given $Asubseteq X_{gamma}$ its preimage $pi_{gamma}^{-1}(A)$ is $Atimesleft(prod_{alphanegamma}X_{alpha}right)$.



When $Omega$ is finite we can choose elements $x_{alpha}$ in each one of the $X_{alpha}$ ($alphanegamma$) to get an $n$-tuple such that $x_{gamma}in X_{gamma}$ but what if $Omega$ isn't finite or even countable infinite? The fact that $pi_gamma$ is surjective would mean we can choose elements from the collection (using the AC).



Is it valid to say "for all" $x_{alpha}in X_{alpha}$ with $alphanegamma$ and some $x_gammain X_gamma$ then $f:Omegatobigcup_{alpha}X_{alpha}$ such that $f(alpha)=x_alpha$ for every $alphainOmega$ is a member of $prod_alpha X_alpha$ ?



Thanks







set-theory axiom-of-choice projection






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asked Nov 22 at 19:32









Pedro

510212




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  • 2




    If $prod_alpha X_alpha$ is empty, then $pi_gamma$ is not surjective. That all such projections are nonempty is just a reformulation of the statement that product are nonempty, which is precisely the axiom of choice. I do not understand your last paragraph.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 22 at 19:38










  • @AndrésE.Caicedo the last paragraph is maybe a (probably wrong ) way to avoid the axiom of choice.
    – Pedro
    Nov 22 at 19:41














  • 2




    If $prod_alpha X_alpha$ is empty, then $pi_gamma$ is not surjective. That all such projections are nonempty is just a reformulation of the statement that product are nonempty, which is precisely the axiom of choice. I do not understand your last paragraph.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 22 at 19:38










  • @AndrésE.Caicedo the last paragraph is maybe a (probably wrong ) way to avoid the axiom of choice.
    – Pedro
    Nov 22 at 19:41








2




2




If $prod_alpha X_alpha$ is empty, then $pi_gamma$ is not surjective. That all such projections are nonempty is just a reformulation of the statement that product are nonempty, which is precisely the axiom of choice. I do not understand your last paragraph.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Nov 22 at 19:38




If $prod_alpha X_alpha$ is empty, then $pi_gamma$ is not surjective. That all such projections are nonempty is just a reformulation of the statement that product are nonempty, which is precisely the axiom of choice. I do not understand your last paragraph.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Nov 22 at 19:38












@AndrésE.Caicedo the last paragraph is maybe a (probably wrong ) way to avoid the axiom of choice.
– Pedro
Nov 22 at 19:41




@AndrésE.Caicedo the last paragraph is maybe a (probably wrong ) way to avoid the axiom of choice.
– Pedro
Nov 22 at 19:41










1 Answer
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up vote
2
down vote



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Yes, choice is needed.



Without choice, $prod_{alphain Omega}X_alpha$ could be empty, even if each $X_alpha$ is nonempty - indeed, "every product of nonempty sets is nonempty" is just the axiom of choice itself! (A choice function for a family of disjoint nonempty sets is exactly an element of their product.)



Re: your last paragraph, the $f$ you're trying to define there need not exist without choice - note that you're beginning right away by picking $x_alphain X_alpha$. So that's why it doesn't get around AC.





What is true is that if $prod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ is nonempty, then each $pi_gamma$ is surjective.



Proof: For simplicity, assume the $X_alpha$s are disjoint. Let $hinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$, and fix $gammainOmega$. For each $xin X_gamma$, let $h_x$ be gotten from $h$ by replacing $h(gamma)$ with $x$: $$h_x(alpha)=h(alpha)mbox{ for $alphainOmegasetminus{gamma}$}, quad h_x(gamma)=x.$$ Then $h_xinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ and $pi_gamma(h_x)=x$.



Note that this means that in fact "the $pi_gamma$s are always surjective" is equivalent to the axiom of choice.






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  • Thanks! Nice answer
    – Pedro
    Nov 22 at 19:47











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1 Answer
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active

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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
2
down vote



accepted










Yes, choice is needed.



Without choice, $prod_{alphain Omega}X_alpha$ could be empty, even if each $X_alpha$ is nonempty - indeed, "every product of nonempty sets is nonempty" is just the axiom of choice itself! (A choice function for a family of disjoint nonempty sets is exactly an element of their product.)



Re: your last paragraph, the $f$ you're trying to define there need not exist without choice - note that you're beginning right away by picking $x_alphain X_alpha$. So that's why it doesn't get around AC.





What is true is that if $prod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ is nonempty, then each $pi_gamma$ is surjective.



Proof: For simplicity, assume the $X_alpha$s are disjoint. Let $hinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$, and fix $gammainOmega$. For each $xin X_gamma$, let $h_x$ be gotten from $h$ by replacing $h(gamma)$ with $x$: $$h_x(alpha)=h(alpha)mbox{ for $alphainOmegasetminus{gamma}$}, quad h_x(gamma)=x.$$ Then $h_xinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ and $pi_gamma(h_x)=x$.



Note that this means that in fact "the $pi_gamma$s are always surjective" is equivalent to the axiom of choice.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks! Nice answer
    – Pedro
    Nov 22 at 19:47















up vote
2
down vote



accepted










Yes, choice is needed.



Without choice, $prod_{alphain Omega}X_alpha$ could be empty, even if each $X_alpha$ is nonempty - indeed, "every product of nonempty sets is nonempty" is just the axiom of choice itself! (A choice function for a family of disjoint nonempty sets is exactly an element of their product.)



Re: your last paragraph, the $f$ you're trying to define there need not exist without choice - note that you're beginning right away by picking $x_alphain X_alpha$. So that's why it doesn't get around AC.





What is true is that if $prod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ is nonempty, then each $pi_gamma$ is surjective.



Proof: For simplicity, assume the $X_alpha$s are disjoint. Let $hinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$, and fix $gammainOmega$. For each $xin X_gamma$, let $h_x$ be gotten from $h$ by replacing $h(gamma)$ with $x$: $$h_x(alpha)=h(alpha)mbox{ for $alphainOmegasetminus{gamma}$}, quad h_x(gamma)=x.$$ Then $h_xinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ and $pi_gamma(h_x)=x$.



Note that this means that in fact "the $pi_gamma$s are always surjective" is equivalent to the axiom of choice.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks! Nice answer
    – Pedro
    Nov 22 at 19:47













up vote
2
down vote



accepted







up vote
2
down vote



accepted






Yes, choice is needed.



Without choice, $prod_{alphain Omega}X_alpha$ could be empty, even if each $X_alpha$ is nonempty - indeed, "every product of nonempty sets is nonempty" is just the axiom of choice itself! (A choice function for a family of disjoint nonempty sets is exactly an element of their product.)



Re: your last paragraph, the $f$ you're trying to define there need not exist without choice - note that you're beginning right away by picking $x_alphain X_alpha$. So that's why it doesn't get around AC.





What is true is that if $prod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ is nonempty, then each $pi_gamma$ is surjective.



Proof: For simplicity, assume the $X_alpha$s are disjoint. Let $hinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$, and fix $gammainOmega$. For each $xin X_gamma$, let $h_x$ be gotten from $h$ by replacing $h(gamma)$ with $x$: $$h_x(alpha)=h(alpha)mbox{ for $alphainOmegasetminus{gamma}$}, quad h_x(gamma)=x.$$ Then $h_xinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ and $pi_gamma(h_x)=x$.



Note that this means that in fact "the $pi_gamma$s are always surjective" is equivalent to the axiom of choice.






share|cite|improve this answer












Yes, choice is needed.



Without choice, $prod_{alphain Omega}X_alpha$ could be empty, even if each $X_alpha$ is nonempty - indeed, "every product of nonempty sets is nonempty" is just the axiom of choice itself! (A choice function for a family of disjoint nonempty sets is exactly an element of their product.)



Re: your last paragraph, the $f$ you're trying to define there need not exist without choice - note that you're beginning right away by picking $x_alphain X_alpha$. So that's why it doesn't get around AC.





What is true is that if $prod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ is nonempty, then each $pi_gamma$ is surjective.



Proof: For simplicity, assume the $X_alpha$s are disjoint. Let $hinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$, and fix $gammainOmega$. For each $xin X_gamma$, let $h_x$ be gotten from $h$ by replacing $h(gamma)$ with $x$: $$h_x(alpha)=h(alpha)mbox{ for $alphainOmegasetminus{gamma}$}, quad h_x(gamma)=x.$$ Then $h_xinprod_{alphainOmega}X_alpha$ and $pi_gamma(h_x)=x$.



Note that this means that in fact "the $pi_gamma$s are always surjective" is equivalent to the axiom of choice.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



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answered Nov 22 at 19:42









Noah Schweber

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  • Thanks! Nice answer
    – Pedro
    Nov 22 at 19:47


















  • Thanks! Nice answer
    – Pedro
    Nov 22 at 19:47
















Thanks! Nice answer
– Pedro
Nov 22 at 19:47




Thanks! Nice answer
– Pedro
Nov 22 at 19:47


















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