Proving if the sum of 5 ints (each raised to the power of 5) is divisible by 25 then the product of those 5...
So I'm trying to prove the following:
For any 5 ints, if the sum of the numbers (each raised to the power of 5) is divisible by 25 then the product of those original 5 ints is divisible by 5.
What I did first was notice that any integer raised to the power of 5 is congruent to 0,1,7,18 or 24 mod 25. And if we choose 5 numbers, and the sum of these powers of 5 is divisible by 25, then it seems like 0 must be one of those 5 numbers (It doesn't seem like any 5 numbers as a combination of 1,7,18,24 summed would be divisible by 25) But if we choose 0 as one of the 5 numbers, it'll work. Then if must always include a 0 for the sum to be divisible by 25, then the product will be divisible by 5 since the product will be 0.
That's what I noticed but I don't know how to prove this. Any advice?
elementary-number-theory
add a comment |
So I'm trying to prove the following:
For any 5 ints, if the sum of the numbers (each raised to the power of 5) is divisible by 25 then the product of those original 5 ints is divisible by 5.
What I did first was notice that any integer raised to the power of 5 is congruent to 0,1,7,18 or 24 mod 25. And if we choose 5 numbers, and the sum of these powers of 5 is divisible by 25, then it seems like 0 must be one of those 5 numbers (It doesn't seem like any 5 numbers as a combination of 1,7,18,24 summed would be divisible by 25) But if we choose 0 as one of the 5 numbers, it'll work. Then if must always include a 0 for the sum to be divisible by 25, then the product will be divisible by 5 since the product will be 0.
That's what I noticed but I don't know how to prove this. Any advice?
elementary-number-theory
Remember that $n^5 mod 25 = 0$, not only when $n=0$ but also when $n$ is any multiple of $5$. That means that we could have 5 integers $2,3,5,7,8$. You are correct in saying any 5 numbers of $1,7,18,24$ won't be divisible by 35, so there must be a multiple of 5 among the integers, and therefore the product will always be divisible by 5.
– Christopher Marley
Nov 28 at 4:32
add a comment |
So I'm trying to prove the following:
For any 5 ints, if the sum of the numbers (each raised to the power of 5) is divisible by 25 then the product of those original 5 ints is divisible by 5.
What I did first was notice that any integer raised to the power of 5 is congruent to 0,1,7,18 or 24 mod 25. And if we choose 5 numbers, and the sum of these powers of 5 is divisible by 25, then it seems like 0 must be one of those 5 numbers (It doesn't seem like any 5 numbers as a combination of 1,7,18,24 summed would be divisible by 25) But if we choose 0 as one of the 5 numbers, it'll work. Then if must always include a 0 for the sum to be divisible by 25, then the product will be divisible by 5 since the product will be 0.
That's what I noticed but I don't know how to prove this. Any advice?
elementary-number-theory
So I'm trying to prove the following:
For any 5 ints, if the sum of the numbers (each raised to the power of 5) is divisible by 25 then the product of those original 5 ints is divisible by 5.
What I did first was notice that any integer raised to the power of 5 is congruent to 0,1,7,18 or 24 mod 25. And if we choose 5 numbers, and the sum of these powers of 5 is divisible by 25, then it seems like 0 must be one of those 5 numbers (It doesn't seem like any 5 numbers as a combination of 1,7,18,24 summed would be divisible by 25) But if we choose 0 as one of the 5 numbers, it'll work. Then if must always include a 0 for the sum to be divisible by 25, then the product will be divisible by 5 since the product will be 0.
That's what I noticed but I don't know how to prove this. Any advice?
elementary-number-theory
elementary-number-theory
edited Nov 28 at 4:19
Henning Makholm
236k16300535
236k16300535
asked Nov 28 at 4:06
Chubbles
8619
8619
Remember that $n^5 mod 25 = 0$, not only when $n=0$ but also when $n$ is any multiple of $5$. That means that we could have 5 integers $2,3,5,7,8$. You are correct in saying any 5 numbers of $1,7,18,24$ won't be divisible by 35, so there must be a multiple of 5 among the integers, and therefore the product will always be divisible by 5.
– Christopher Marley
Nov 28 at 4:32
add a comment |
Remember that $n^5 mod 25 = 0$, not only when $n=0$ but also when $n$ is any multiple of $5$. That means that we could have 5 integers $2,3,5,7,8$. You are correct in saying any 5 numbers of $1,7,18,24$ won't be divisible by 35, so there must be a multiple of 5 among the integers, and therefore the product will always be divisible by 5.
– Christopher Marley
Nov 28 at 4:32
Remember that $n^5 mod 25 = 0$, not only when $n=0$ but also when $n$ is any multiple of $5$. That means that we could have 5 integers $2,3,5,7,8$. You are correct in saying any 5 numbers of $1,7,18,24$ won't be divisible by 35, so there must be a multiple of 5 among the integers, and therefore the product will always be divisible by 5.
– Christopher Marley
Nov 28 at 4:32
Remember that $n^5 mod 25 = 0$, not only when $n=0$ but also when $n$ is any multiple of $5$. That means that we could have 5 integers $2,3,5,7,8$. You are correct in saying any 5 numbers of $1,7,18,24$ won't be divisible by 35, so there must be a multiple of 5 among the integers, and therefore the product will always be divisible by 5.
– Christopher Marley
Nov 28 at 4:32
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
You are basically done already. You just have to write out your argument in detail as for why it is the case that the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ from the sum of five fifth powers is to have one of those powers be congruent to $0bmod 25$.
If this is for your own edification, you could simply exhaust over the possible sums that exclude $0bmod 25$ (there are 1024 such sums if you naively count them, but if you are really careful there are only 56 important cases). If you don't want to do that, you could make a series of arguments like the following...
The only residues $bmod 25$ that are fifth powers are $0,pm 1$, and $pm 7$. If exactly one of the five numbers in the sum has a residue of $7$ and no numbers have a residue of $-7$, then the entire sum can only be $3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10$, or $11bmod 25$. The same argument applies to the case of exactly one number having residue $-7$ and no numbers of residue $7$. Similar arguments will handle sums in which there are only $7$'s or $-7$'s. So the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ is to have a mixture of $7$'s and $-7$'s. Now keep on handling cases...
While this is much less effort than enumerating all possible sums, you can see that the entire argument will still be long and boring. Is there a more clever way? I hope so, but it is late, and I can't think very well.
At the end, you will see that the only sums that work are those that have at least one number with a residue of $0bmod 25$. But wait, which numbers have fifth powers that are congruent to $0$? Those that are divisible by 5. Thus, when you do to take the product of the terms in your sum, it too will be divisible by $5$.
add a comment |
What you have written is correct. More precisely, the fifth power of every number is congruent to one of $0, pm 1 , pm 7$ modulo $25$. To show this, one sees that $(a+5)^5 equiv a^5 mod 25$ for all $a$, and then checks $a^5 mod 25$ for $a = 0,pm 1 , pm 2$.
However, if $a^5+b^5+c^5+d^5+e^5 equiv 0 mod 25$, then this is equivalent to the statement that the sum of five (possibly repeated) elements of ${0,pm 1, pm 7}$ is a multiple of $25$.
It is easy to see that this cannot happen with just the sets ${pm 1}$ and ${pm 7}$. For example, the sum of five elements from ${pm 1}$ must be odd, and have absolute value smaller than $6$, so cannot be a multiple of $25$. Similarly, the sum of $5$ elements from ${pm 7}$ must be odd, a multiple of $7$ and have absolute value smaller than $36$, so is not a multiple of $25$.
For the combined set ${pm 1,pm 7}$, again the sum of any five elements must be odd. However, $25$ is of the form $7 times 3 + 4 = 7times 4 - 3$. Therefore, there must at least be three elements of absolute value $1$, otherwise the sum will be of the form $7npm b$ where $|b| leq 2$, which cannot equal to $25$. However, since we have only $5$ elements to choose, the absolute value of a sum consisting of at least three elements of absolute value $1$, cannot exceed absolute value of $18$. Hence, no such sum is a multiple of $25$.
Which tells us, that $0$ must be the remainder when one of the $x^5$ is divided by $5$. Or, such an $x$ is a multiple of $5$.
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3016703%2fproving-if-the-sum-of-5-ints-each-raised-to-the-power-of-5-is-divisible-by-25%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
You are basically done already. You just have to write out your argument in detail as for why it is the case that the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ from the sum of five fifth powers is to have one of those powers be congruent to $0bmod 25$.
If this is for your own edification, you could simply exhaust over the possible sums that exclude $0bmod 25$ (there are 1024 such sums if you naively count them, but if you are really careful there are only 56 important cases). If you don't want to do that, you could make a series of arguments like the following...
The only residues $bmod 25$ that are fifth powers are $0,pm 1$, and $pm 7$. If exactly one of the five numbers in the sum has a residue of $7$ and no numbers have a residue of $-7$, then the entire sum can only be $3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10$, or $11bmod 25$. The same argument applies to the case of exactly one number having residue $-7$ and no numbers of residue $7$. Similar arguments will handle sums in which there are only $7$'s or $-7$'s. So the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ is to have a mixture of $7$'s and $-7$'s. Now keep on handling cases...
While this is much less effort than enumerating all possible sums, you can see that the entire argument will still be long and boring. Is there a more clever way? I hope so, but it is late, and I can't think very well.
At the end, you will see that the only sums that work are those that have at least one number with a residue of $0bmod 25$. But wait, which numbers have fifth powers that are congruent to $0$? Those that are divisible by 5. Thus, when you do to take the product of the terms in your sum, it too will be divisible by $5$.
add a comment |
You are basically done already. You just have to write out your argument in detail as for why it is the case that the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ from the sum of five fifth powers is to have one of those powers be congruent to $0bmod 25$.
If this is for your own edification, you could simply exhaust over the possible sums that exclude $0bmod 25$ (there are 1024 such sums if you naively count them, but if you are really careful there are only 56 important cases). If you don't want to do that, you could make a series of arguments like the following...
The only residues $bmod 25$ that are fifth powers are $0,pm 1$, and $pm 7$. If exactly one of the five numbers in the sum has a residue of $7$ and no numbers have a residue of $-7$, then the entire sum can only be $3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10$, or $11bmod 25$. The same argument applies to the case of exactly one number having residue $-7$ and no numbers of residue $7$. Similar arguments will handle sums in which there are only $7$'s or $-7$'s. So the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ is to have a mixture of $7$'s and $-7$'s. Now keep on handling cases...
While this is much less effort than enumerating all possible sums, you can see that the entire argument will still be long and boring. Is there a more clever way? I hope so, but it is late, and I can't think very well.
At the end, you will see that the only sums that work are those that have at least one number with a residue of $0bmod 25$. But wait, which numbers have fifth powers that are congruent to $0$? Those that are divisible by 5. Thus, when you do to take the product of the terms in your sum, it too will be divisible by $5$.
add a comment |
You are basically done already. You just have to write out your argument in detail as for why it is the case that the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ from the sum of five fifth powers is to have one of those powers be congruent to $0bmod 25$.
If this is for your own edification, you could simply exhaust over the possible sums that exclude $0bmod 25$ (there are 1024 such sums if you naively count them, but if you are really careful there are only 56 important cases). If you don't want to do that, you could make a series of arguments like the following...
The only residues $bmod 25$ that are fifth powers are $0,pm 1$, and $pm 7$. If exactly one of the five numbers in the sum has a residue of $7$ and no numbers have a residue of $-7$, then the entire sum can only be $3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10$, or $11bmod 25$. The same argument applies to the case of exactly one number having residue $-7$ and no numbers of residue $7$. Similar arguments will handle sums in which there are only $7$'s or $-7$'s. So the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ is to have a mixture of $7$'s and $-7$'s. Now keep on handling cases...
While this is much less effort than enumerating all possible sums, you can see that the entire argument will still be long and boring. Is there a more clever way? I hope so, but it is late, and I can't think very well.
At the end, you will see that the only sums that work are those that have at least one number with a residue of $0bmod 25$. But wait, which numbers have fifth powers that are congruent to $0$? Those that are divisible by 5. Thus, when you do to take the product of the terms in your sum, it too will be divisible by $5$.
You are basically done already. You just have to write out your argument in detail as for why it is the case that the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ from the sum of five fifth powers is to have one of those powers be congruent to $0bmod 25$.
If this is for your own edification, you could simply exhaust over the possible sums that exclude $0bmod 25$ (there are 1024 such sums if you naively count them, but if you are really careful there are only 56 important cases). If you don't want to do that, you could make a series of arguments like the following...
The only residues $bmod 25$ that are fifth powers are $0,pm 1$, and $pm 7$. If exactly one of the five numbers in the sum has a residue of $7$ and no numbers have a residue of $-7$, then the entire sum can only be $3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10$, or $11bmod 25$. The same argument applies to the case of exactly one number having residue $-7$ and no numbers of residue $7$. Similar arguments will handle sums in which there are only $7$'s or $-7$'s. So the only way to get back $0bmod 25$ is to have a mixture of $7$'s and $-7$'s. Now keep on handling cases...
While this is much less effort than enumerating all possible sums, you can see that the entire argument will still be long and boring. Is there a more clever way? I hope so, but it is late, and I can't think very well.
At the end, you will see that the only sums that work are those that have at least one number with a residue of $0bmod 25$. But wait, which numbers have fifth powers that are congruent to $0$? Those that are divisible by 5. Thus, when you do to take the product of the terms in your sum, it too will be divisible by $5$.
answered Nov 28 at 4:42
Valborg
792
792
add a comment |
add a comment |
What you have written is correct. More precisely, the fifth power of every number is congruent to one of $0, pm 1 , pm 7$ modulo $25$. To show this, one sees that $(a+5)^5 equiv a^5 mod 25$ for all $a$, and then checks $a^5 mod 25$ for $a = 0,pm 1 , pm 2$.
However, if $a^5+b^5+c^5+d^5+e^5 equiv 0 mod 25$, then this is equivalent to the statement that the sum of five (possibly repeated) elements of ${0,pm 1, pm 7}$ is a multiple of $25$.
It is easy to see that this cannot happen with just the sets ${pm 1}$ and ${pm 7}$. For example, the sum of five elements from ${pm 1}$ must be odd, and have absolute value smaller than $6$, so cannot be a multiple of $25$. Similarly, the sum of $5$ elements from ${pm 7}$ must be odd, a multiple of $7$ and have absolute value smaller than $36$, so is not a multiple of $25$.
For the combined set ${pm 1,pm 7}$, again the sum of any five elements must be odd. However, $25$ is of the form $7 times 3 + 4 = 7times 4 - 3$. Therefore, there must at least be three elements of absolute value $1$, otherwise the sum will be of the form $7npm b$ where $|b| leq 2$, which cannot equal to $25$. However, since we have only $5$ elements to choose, the absolute value of a sum consisting of at least three elements of absolute value $1$, cannot exceed absolute value of $18$. Hence, no such sum is a multiple of $25$.
Which tells us, that $0$ must be the remainder when one of the $x^5$ is divided by $5$. Or, such an $x$ is a multiple of $5$.
add a comment |
What you have written is correct. More precisely, the fifth power of every number is congruent to one of $0, pm 1 , pm 7$ modulo $25$. To show this, one sees that $(a+5)^5 equiv a^5 mod 25$ for all $a$, and then checks $a^5 mod 25$ for $a = 0,pm 1 , pm 2$.
However, if $a^5+b^5+c^5+d^5+e^5 equiv 0 mod 25$, then this is equivalent to the statement that the sum of five (possibly repeated) elements of ${0,pm 1, pm 7}$ is a multiple of $25$.
It is easy to see that this cannot happen with just the sets ${pm 1}$ and ${pm 7}$. For example, the sum of five elements from ${pm 1}$ must be odd, and have absolute value smaller than $6$, so cannot be a multiple of $25$. Similarly, the sum of $5$ elements from ${pm 7}$ must be odd, a multiple of $7$ and have absolute value smaller than $36$, so is not a multiple of $25$.
For the combined set ${pm 1,pm 7}$, again the sum of any five elements must be odd. However, $25$ is of the form $7 times 3 + 4 = 7times 4 - 3$. Therefore, there must at least be three elements of absolute value $1$, otherwise the sum will be of the form $7npm b$ where $|b| leq 2$, which cannot equal to $25$. However, since we have only $5$ elements to choose, the absolute value of a sum consisting of at least three elements of absolute value $1$, cannot exceed absolute value of $18$. Hence, no such sum is a multiple of $25$.
Which tells us, that $0$ must be the remainder when one of the $x^5$ is divided by $5$. Or, such an $x$ is a multiple of $5$.
add a comment |
What you have written is correct. More precisely, the fifth power of every number is congruent to one of $0, pm 1 , pm 7$ modulo $25$. To show this, one sees that $(a+5)^5 equiv a^5 mod 25$ for all $a$, and then checks $a^5 mod 25$ for $a = 0,pm 1 , pm 2$.
However, if $a^5+b^5+c^5+d^5+e^5 equiv 0 mod 25$, then this is equivalent to the statement that the sum of five (possibly repeated) elements of ${0,pm 1, pm 7}$ is a multiple of $25$.
It is easy to see that this cannot happen with just the sets ${pm 1}$ and ${pm 7}$. For example, the sum of five elements from ${pm 1}$ must be odd, and have absolute value smaller than $6$, so cannot be a multiple of $25$. Similarly, the sum of $5$ elements from ${pm 7}$ must be odd, a multiple of $7$ and have absolute value smaller than $36$, so is not a multiple of $25$.
For the combined set ${pm 1,pm 7}$, again the sum of any five elements must be odd. However, $25$ is of the form $7 times 3 + 4 = 7times 4 - 3$. Therefore, there must at least be three elements of absolute value $1$, otherwise the sum will be of the form $7npm b$ where $|b| leq 2$, which cannot equal to $25$. However, since we have only $5$ elements to choose, the absolute value of a sum consisting of at least three elements of absolute value $1$, cannot exceed absolute value of $18$. Hence, no such sum is a multiple of $25$.
Which tells us, that $0$ must be the remainder when one of the $x^5$ is divided by $5$. Or, such an $x$ is a multiple of $5$.
What you have written is correct. More precisely, the fifth power of every number is congruent to one of $0, pm 1 , pm 7$ modulo $25$. To show this, one sees that $(a+5)^5 equiv a^5 mod 25$ for all $a$, and then checks $a^5 mod 25$ for $a = 0,pm 1 , pm 2$.
However, if $a^5+b^5+c^5+d^5+e^5 equiv 0 mod 25$, then this is equivalent to the statement that the sum of five (possibly repeated) elements of ${0,pm 1, pm 7}$ is a multiple of $25$.
It is easy to see that this cannot happen with just the sets ${pm 1}$ and ${pm 7}$. For example, the sum of five elements from ${pm 1}$ must be odd, and have absolute value smaller than $6$, so cannot be a multiple of $25$. Similarly, the sum of $5$ elements from ${pm 7}$ must be odd, a multiple of $7$ and have absolute value smaller than $36$, so is not a multiple of $25$.
For the combined set ${pm 1,pm 7}$, again the sum of any five elements must be odd. However, $25$ is of the form $7 times 3 + 4 = 7times 4 - 3$. Therefore, there must at least be three elements of absolute value $1$, otherwise the sum will be of the form $7npm b$ where $|b| leq 2$, which cannot equal to $25$. However, since we have only $5$ elements to choose, the absolute value of a sum consisting of at least three elements of absolute value $1$, cannot exceed absolute value of $18$. Hence, no such sum is a multiple of $25$.
Which tells us, that $0$ must be the remainder when one of the $x^5$ is divided by $5$. Or, such an $x$ is a multiple of $5$.
answered Nov 28 at 4:46
астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
37.2k33376
37.2k33376
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3016703%2fproving-if-the-sum-of-5-ints-each-raised-to-the-power-of-5-is-divisible-by-25%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Remember that $n^5 mod 25 = 0$, not only when $n=0$ but also when $n$ is any multiple of $5$. That means that we could have 5 integers $2,3,5,7,8$. You are correct in saying any 5 numbers of $1,7,18,24$ won't be divisible by 35, so there must be a multiple of 5 among the integers, and therefore the product will always be divisible by 5.
– Christopher Marley
Nov 28 at 4:32