In homotopy type theory, is judgemental equality $x equiv y$ the same as a proof of equality being...
$begingroup$
In homotopy type theory, there are two notions of equality. There's the internal propositional equality, $=$, and the stronger, more-meta judgemental equality, $equiv$. My question is, is $x equiv y$ the same as all of the following holding:
$$
p_1 : x=y,quad p_2 : p_1=text{refl}, quad p_3 : p_2 = text{refl}, quad ldots
$$
? My intuition says yes, but this stuff gets so self-referential that I can hardly keep it straight. Here's my thinking: a type $A:mathscr{U}$ is a topological space in HoTT. So I'm visualizing it as the disjoint union of a bunch of path-connected spaces, where two points are in the same subspace iff they're propositionally equal. Judgemental equality, as the strongest possible equality, holds iff they're actually the same point. Reflection is the constant path, so then we ought to have $x equiv y$ iff $p_1 : x = y, quad p_1 equiv text{refl}$. If that's right, then you can use the same idea to turn $p_1 equiv text{refl}$ into $p_2 : p_1 = text{refl}, quad p_2 equiv text{refl}$, and just keep doing that ad-infinitum.
Is the above picture correct, or even coherent? If not, what's a better visual?
EDIT: It's been explained to me that what I said obviously can't be true as written; e.g., $text{base} equiv text{base}$ despite $text{loop} : text{base} = text{base}$ and $text{loop} notequiv text{refl}$. So to rephrase, is it true if you existentially quantify everything? That is, does $x equiv y$ hold iff there exists a $p_1, p_2, p_3, ldots$ (all of which are proofs that the next lower level is reflection)?
homotopy-type-theory
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show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
In homotopy type theory, there are two notions of equality. There's the internal propositional equality, $=$, and the stronger, more-meta judgemental equality, $equiv$. My question is, is $x equiv y$ the same as all of the following holding:
$$
p_1 : x=y,quad p_2 : p_1=text{refl}, quad p_3 : p_2 = text{refl}, quad ldots
$$
? My intuition says yes, but this stuff gets so self-referential that I can hardly keep it straight. Here's my thinking: a type $A:mathscr{U}$ is a topological space in HoTT. So I'm visualizing it as the disjoint union of a bunch of path-connected spaces, where two points are in the same subspace iff they're propositionally equal. Judgemental equality, as the strongest possible equality, holds iff they're actually the same point. Reflection is the constant path, so then we ought to have $x equiv y$ iff $p_1 : x = y, quad p_1 equiv text{refl}$. If that's right, then you can use the same idea to turn $p_1 equiv text{refl}$ into $p_2 : p_1 = text{refl}, quad p_2 equiv text{refl}$, and just keep doing that ad-infinitum.
Is the above picture correct, or even coherent? If not, what's a better visual?
EDIT: It's been explained to me that what I said obviously can't be true as written; e.g., $text{base} equiv text{base}$ despite $text{loop} : text{base} = text{base}$ and $text{loop} notequiv text{refl}$. So to rephrase, is it true if you existentially quantify everything? That is, does $x equiv y$ hold iff there exists a $p_1, p_2, p_3, ldots$ (all of which are proofs that the next lower level is reflection)?
homotopy-type-theory
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
It's certainly possible to have $x equiv y$ and have $p : x = y$ with $p notequiv mathsf{refl}$ (and even $p ne mathsf{refl}$), for example take $x equiv y equiv mathsf{base} : mathbb{S}^1$ and $p equiv mathsf{loop} : mathsf{base} = mathsf{base}$. The assertion $x equiv y$ is an external judgement: under the homotopy interpretation, HoTT can only detect paths between points, but the assertion $x equiv y$ can be thought of as saying that $x$ and $y$ are 'the same point'—this is not homotopy-invariant, so cannot be internalised.
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– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:37
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@CliveNewstead Okay, that makes sense. But what if you, like, existentially quantify it? With $x equiv y$, there still exists a $p : x equiv y$ that's judgementally reflection, right? So is $x equiv y$ iff there exists a $p : x = y$ such that $p equiv text{refl}$? That doesn't internalize $equiv$, since it appears on the right side of the "iff" too, so if true it wouldn't violate what you said about the impossibility of internalizing $equiv$---do I have that right?
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– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 13:55
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(Careful—you've written "$p : x equiv y$", but $x equiv y$ is not a type!) If $x equiv y$ then $x$ and $y$ are quite literally ('definitionally') the same term, so $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$. But you cannot conclude $x equiv y$ from the judgement $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$.
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– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:59
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@CliveNewstead Oops, typo. My bad! Wish you could edit comments after 5 minutes or whatever.... I think I see what you're saying. Is the visual I described in my post the right picture to have in mind? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like it is.
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 14:07
1
$begingroup$
The answer to your edited question is still 'no'. For example take terms $x,y : A$ such that (externally) $x notequiv y$ but (internally) $mathrm{refl}_x : x =_A y$, define $p_1 equiv mathrm{refl}_x$ and $p_i equiv mathrm{refl}_{p_{i-1}}$ for each $i > 1$. I think the issue is that you're thinking about types in HoTT too literally as 'spaces', when really they behave more like 'fundamental $infty$-groupoids of spaces'. The view of a type as a disjoint union of path-connected components is too simplistic.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 15:02
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
In homotopy type theory, there are two notions of equality. There's the internal propositional equality, $=$, and the stronger, more-meta judgemental equality, $equiv$. My question is, is $x equiv y$ the same as all of the following holding:
$$
p_1 : x=y,quad p_2 : p_1=text{refl}, quad p_3 : p_2 = text{refl}, quad ldots
$$
? My intuition says yes, but this stuff gets so self-referential that I can hardly keep it straight. Here's my thinking: a type $A:mathscr{U}$ is a topological space in HoTT. So I'm visualizing it as the disjoint union of a bunch of path-connected spaces, where two points are in the same subspace iff they're propositionally equal. Judgemental equality, as the strongest possible equality, holds iff they're actually the same point. Reflection is the constant path, so then we ought to have $x equiv y$ iff $p_1 : x = y, quad p_1 equiv text{refl}$. If that's right, then you can use the same idea to turn $p_1 equiv text{refl}$ into $p_2 : p_1 = text{refl}, quad p_2 equiv text{refl}$, and just keep doing that ad-infinitum.
Is the above picture correct, or even coherent? If not, what's a better visual?
EDIT: It's been explained to me that what I said obviously can't be true as written; e.g., $text{base} equiv text{base}$ despite $text{loop} : text{base} = text{base}$ and $text{loop} notequiv text{refl}$. So to rephrase, is it true if you existentially quantify everything? That is, does $x equiv y$ hold iff there exists a $p_1, p_2, p_3, ldots$ (all of which are proofs that the next lower level is reflection)?
homotopy-type-theory
$endgroup$
In homotopy type theory, there are two notions of equality. There's the internal propositional equality, $=$, and the stronger, more-meta judgemental equality, $equiv$. My question is, is $x equiv y$ the same as all of the following holding:
$$
p_1 : x=y,quad p_2 : p_1=text{refl}, quad p_3 : p_2 = text{refl}, quad ldots
$$
? My intuition says yes, but this stuff gets so self-referential that I can hardly keep it straight. Here's my thinking: a type $A:mathscr{U}$ is a topological space in HoTT. So I'm visualizing it as the disjoint union of a bunch of path-connected spaces, where two points are in the same subspace iff they're propositionally equal. Judgemental equality, as the strongest possible equality, holds iff they're actually the same point. Reflection is the constant path, so then we ought to have $x equiv y$ iff $p_1 : x = y, quad p_1 equiv text{refl}$. If that's right, then you can use the same idea to turn $p_1 equiv text{refl}$ into $p_2 : p_1 = text{refl}, quad p_2 equiv text{refl}$, and just keep doing that ad-infinitum.
Is the above picture correct, or even coherent? If not, what's a better visual?
EDIT: It's been explained to me that what I said obviously can't be true as written; e.g., $text{base} equiv text{base}$ despite $text{loop} : text{base} = text{base}$ and $text{loop} notequiv text{refl}$. So to rephrase, is it true if you existentially quantify everything? That is, does $x equiv y$ hold iff there exists a $p_1, p_2, p_3, ldots$ (all of which are proofs that the next lower level is reflection)?
homotopy-type-theory
homotopy-type-theory
edited Dec 10 '18 at 14:01
greatBigDot
asked Dec 10 '18 at 13:22
greatBigDotgreatBigDot
225
225
1
$begingroup$
It's certainly possible to have $x equiv y$ and have $p : x = y$ with $p notequiv mathsf{refl}$ (and even $p ne mathsf{refl}$), for example take $x equiv y equiv mathsf{base} : mathbb{S}^1$ and $p equiv mathsf{loop} : mathsf{base} = mathsf{base}$. The assertion $x equiv y$ is an external judgement: under the homotopy interpretation, HoTT can only detect paths between points, but the assertion $x equiv y$ can be thought of as saying that $x$ and $y$ are 'the same point'—this is not homotopy-invariant, so cannot be internalised.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:37
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Okay, that makes sense. But what if you, like, existentially quantify it? With $x equiv y$, there still exists a $p : x equiv y$ that's judgementally reflection, right? So is $x equiv y$ iff there exists a $p : x = y$ such that $p equiv text{refl}$? That doesn't internalize $equiv$, since it appears on the right side of the "iff" too, so if true it wouldn't violate what you said about the impossibility of internalizing $equiv$---do I have that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 13:55
$begingroup$
(Careful—you've written "$p : x equiv y$", but $x equiv y$ is not a type!) If $x equiv y$ then $x$ and $y$ are quite literally ('definitionally') the same term, so $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$. But you cannot conclude $x equiv y$ from the judgement $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:59
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Oops, typo. My bad! Wish you could edit comments after 5 minutes or whatever.... I think I see what you're saying. Is the visual I described in my post the right picture to have in mind? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like it is.
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 14:07
1
$begingroup$
The answer to your edited question is still 'no'. For example take terms $x,y : A$ such that (externally) $x notequiv y$ but (internally) $mathrm{refl}_x : x =_A y$, define $p_1 equiv mathrm{refl}_x$ and $p_i equiv mathrm{refl}_{p_{i-1}}$ for each $i > 1$. I think the issue is that you're thinking about types in HoTT too literally as 'spaces', when really they behave more like 'fundamental $infty$-groupoids of spaces'. The view of a type as a disjoint union of path-connected components is too simplistic.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 15:02
|
show 2 more comments
1
$begingroup$
It's certainly possible to have $x equiv y$ and have $p : x = y$ with $p notequiv mathsf{refl}$ (and even $p ne mathsf{refl}$), for example take $x equiv y equiv mathsf{base} : mathbb{S}^1$ and $p equiv mathsf{loop} : mathsf{base} = mathsf{base}$. The assertion $x equiv y$ is an external judgement: under the homotopy interpretation, HoTT can only detect paths between points, but the assertion $x equiv y$ can be thought of as saying that $x$ and $y$ are 'the same point'—this is not homotopy-invariant, so cannot be internalised.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:37
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Okay, that makes sense. But what if you, like, existentially quantify it? With $x equiv y$, there still exists a $p : x equiv y$ that's judgementally reflection, right? So is $x equiv y$ iff there exists a $p : x = y$ such that $p equiv text{refl}$? That doesn't internalize $equiv$, since it appears on the right side of the "iff" too, so if true it wouldn't violate what you said about the impossibility of internalizing $equiv$---do I have that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 13:55
$begingroup$
(Careful—you've written "$p : x equiv y$", but $x equiv y$ is not a type!) If $x equiv y$ then $x$ and $y$ are quite literally ('definitionally') the same term, so $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$. But you cannot conclude $x equiv y$ from the judgement $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:59
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Oops, typo. My bad! Wish you could edit comments after 5 minutes or whatever.... I think I see what you're saying. Is the visual I described in my post the right picture to have in mind? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like it is.
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 14:07
1
$begingroup$
The answer to your edited question is still 'no'. For example take terms $x,y : A$ such that (externally) $x notequiv y$ but (internally) $mathrm{refl}_x : x =_A y$, define $p_1 equiv mathrm{refl}_x$ and $p_i equiv mathrm{refl}_{p_{i-1}}$ for each $i > 1$. I think the issue is that you're thinking about types in HoTT too literally as 'spaces', when really they behave more like 'fundamental $infty$-groupoids of spaces'. The view of a type as a disjoint union of path-connected components is too simplistic.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 15:02
1
1
$begingroup$
It's certainly possible to have $x equiv y$ and have $p : x = y$ with $p notequiv mathsf{refl}$ (and even $p ne mathsf{refl}$), for example take $x equiv y equiv mathsf{base} : mathbb{S}^1$ and $p equiv mathsf{loop} : mathsf{base} = mathsf{base}$. The assertion $x equiv y$ is an external judgement: under the homotopy interpretation, HoTT can only detect paths between points, but the assertion $x equiv y$ can be thought of as saying that $x$ and $y$ are 'the same point'—this is not homotopy-invariant, so cannot be internalised.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:37
$begingroup$
It's certainly possible to have $x equiv y$ and have $p : x = y$ with $p notequiv mathsf{refl}$ (and even $p ne mathsf{refl}$), for example take $x equiv y equiv mathsf{base} : mathbb{S}^1$ and $p equiv mathsf{loop} : mathsf{base} = mathsf{base}$. The assertion $x equiv y$ is an external judgement: under the homotopy interpretation, HoTT can only detect paths between points, but the assertion $x equiv y$ can be thought of as saying that $x$ and $y$ are 'the same point'—this is not homotopy-invariant, so cannot be internalised.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:37
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Okay, that makes sense. But what if you, like, existentially quantify it? With $x equiv y$, there still exists a $p : x equiv y$ that's judgementally reflection, right? So is $x equiv y$ iff there exists a $p : x = y$ such that $p equiv text{refl}$? That doesn't internalize $equiv$, since it appears on the right side of the "iff" too, so if true it wouldn't violate what you said about the impossibility of internalizing $equiv$---do I have that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 13:55
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Okay, that makes sense. But what if you, like, existentially quantify it? With $x equiv y$, there still exists a $p : x equiv y$ that's judgementally reflection, right? So is $x equiv y$ iff there exists a $p : x = y$ such that $p equiv text{refl}$? That doesn't internalize $equiv$, since it appears on the right side of the "iff" too, so if true it wouldn't violate what you said about the impossibility of internalizing $equiv$---do I have that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 13:55
$begingroup$
(Careful—you've written "$p : x equiv y$", but $x equiv y$ is not a type!) If $x equiv y$ then $x$ and $y$ are quite literally ('definitionally') the same term, so $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$. But you cannot conclude $x equiv y$ from the judgement $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:59
$begingroup$
(Careful—you've written "$p : x equiv y$", but $x equiv y$ is not a type!) If $x equiv y$ then $x$ and $y$ are quite literally ('definitionally') the same term, so $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$. But you cannot conclude $x equiv y$ from the judgement $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:59
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Oops, typo. My bad! Wish you could edit comments after 5 minutes or whatever.... I think I see what you're saying. Is the visual I described in my post the right picture to have in mind? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like it is.
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 14:07
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Oops, typo. My bad! Wish you could edit comments after 5 minutes or whatever.... I think I see what you're saying. Is the visual I described in my post the right picture to have in mind? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like it is.
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 14:07
1
1
$begingroup$
The answer to your edited question is still 'no'. For example take terms $x,y : A$ such that (externally) $x notequiv y$ but (internally) $mathrm{refl}_x : x =_A y$, define $p_1 equiv mathrm{refl}_x$ and $p_i equiv mathrm{refl}_{p_{i-1}}$ for each $i > 1$. I think the issue is that you're thinking about types in HoTT too literally as 'spaces', when really they behave more like 'fundamental $infty$-groupoids of spaces'. The view of a type as a disjoint union of path-connected components is too simplistic.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 15:02
$begingroup$
The answer to your edited question is still 'no'. For example take terms $x,y : A$ such that (externally) $x notequiv y$ but (internally) $mathrm{refl}_x : x =_A y$, define $p_1 equiv mathrm{refl}_x$ and $p_i equiv mathrm{refl}_{p_{i-1}}$ for each $i > 1$. I think the issue is that you're thinking about types in HoTT too literally as 'spaces', when really they behave more like 'fundamental $infty$-groupoids of spaces'. The view of a type as a disjoint union of path-connected components is too simplistic.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 15:02
|
show 2 more comments
1 Answer
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I think the answer to your question (existentially reformulated) is "yes", but not for the reason you probably think. In fact as soon as you have $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$, it must be that $xequiv y$. The reason is that equality is "homogeneous": it only makes sense to talk about whether $x=y$ once you know that $x$ and $y$ have the same type (hence why we sometimes write $x=_A y$). So in particular, it only makes sense to talk about $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ once you know that $p_1$ and ${rm refl}$ have the same type. But $p_1$ has type $x=y$ and ${rm refl}_x$ (say) has type $x=x$, while terms have unique types (modulo subtleties like subtyping and universe cumulativity) so it must be that the types $x=y$ and $x=x$ are (judgmentally) equal, $(x=y)equiv (x=x)$. Finally, type constructors are (judgmentally) injective, so for instance $(a=b) equiv (c=d)$ can only happen if $aequiv c$ and $bequiv d$; hence in this case we must have $yequiv x$.
The reason I say that this is probably not what you're thinking about is that it's basically syntactic trickery, due to the way that the syntax is usually formulated and the fairly finicky properties (like unique types and injectivity of type formers) that it usually has. Moreover, these properties are "admissible" rather than "derivable", which means that the above argument is not a proof inside HoTT (or more precisely a "derivation"), rather it is a meta-argument about derivability: whenever you can derive $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ it must also be the case that you can derive $xequiv y$.
Here's an example that I think may be more along the lines you have in mind which shows that the answer to the question you probably meant to ask is "no". Suppose $A$ is a contractible type, so that for any $x,y:A$ we have $x=y$. In fact, if $A$ is contractible then the type $x=y$ is also contractible. Thus, for $x,y:A$ we have some $p_1:x=y$, and for any $q_1:x=y$ we have $p_2:p_1=q_1$; and for any $q_2:p_1=q_1$ we have $p_3:p_2=q_2$; and so on. But this doesn't imply $xequiv y$. For instance, we could take $A = sum_{b:S^1} (b={rm base})$; then $A$ is contractible, but the two points $({rm base},{rm refl})$ and $({rm base},{rm loop})$ of $A$ are not judgmentally equal, since if they were then we would have ${rm refl} equiv {rm loop}$ which cannot be true. (Note that any proof of "judgmental inequality" must also be a meta-argument that "judgmental equality is not derivable", since the formal system of type theory does not allow derivations of judgmental inequality.)
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$begingroup$
Okay. So is it right to say that, as meta-arguments, (1) $x equiv y$ iff they are propositionally equal and the proof is judgementally $text{refl}$, and (2) being propositionally equal to $text{refl}$ isn't especially meaningful, since it must actually judgementally be reflection, by the syntactic trickery you talked about? Your answer made some things click for me, I think. Now that I actually think about it, I'm not entirely sure what I was going for when I talked about something being propositionally equal to reflexivity. Thanks!
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– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:19
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And it doesn't matter if you use homogenous or "heterogenous" equality here, right? If you actually have a term $a = b$, then they have to have the same type; it doesn't matter if you can construct types $(a:A) = (b:B)$, since they are by necessity empty if $A notequiv B$. Is that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:24
$begingroup$
@greatBigDot I believe (1) is basically correct (although I am not an expert in the syntactic trickery, so there could be caveats needed). But I think (2) is mixing levels: what I said is that if $p:x=y$, you can only even talk about whether $p$ is propositionally equal to refl if you know that $x$ and $y$ are judgmentally equal; but that doesn't imply that $p$ is judgmentally equal to refl. In homotopy type theory it is a meaningful question to ask whether a given loop $p:x=x$ is propositionally equal to refl; sometimes the answer will be yes and sometimes no.
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– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:13
$begingroup$
Re your second comment, there are many different things that might be meant by "heterogeneous equality". Arguably the most natural notion of heterogeneous propositional equality in HoTT between $a:A$ and $b:B$ consists of an equivalence $Asimeq B$ that carries $a$ to $b$. In particular, because of univalence, it's not possible to propositionally distinguish equivalent types, so you can't have a type "$(a:A) = (b:B)$" that can "tell" whether $A$ and $B$ are judgmentally equal.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:15
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$begingroup$
I think the answer to your question (existentially reformulated) is "yes", but not for the reason you probably think. In fact as soon as you have $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$, it must be that $xequiv y$. The reason is that equality is "homogeneous": it only makes sense to talk about whether $x=y$ once you know that $x$ and $y$ have the same type (hence why we sometimes write $x=_A y$). So in particular, it only makes sense to talk about $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ once you know that $p_1$ and ${rm refl}$ have the same type. But $p_1$ has type $x=y$ and ${rm refl}_x$ (say) has type $x=x$, while terms have unique types (modulo subtleties like subtyping and universe cumulativity) so it must be that the types $x=y$ and $x=x$ are (judgmentally) equal, $(x=y)equiv (x=x)$. Finally, type constructors are (judgmentally) injective, so for instance $(a=b) equiv (c=d)$ can only happen if $aequiv c$ and $bequiv d$; hence in this case we must have $yequiv x$.
The reason I say that this is probably not what you're thinking about is that it's basically syntactic trickery, due to the way that the syntax is usually formulated and the fairly finicky properties (like unique types and injectivity of type formers) that it usually has. Moreover, these properties are "admissible" rather than "derivable", which means that the above argument is not a proof inside HoTT (or more precisely a "derivation"), rather it is a meta-argument about derivability: whenever you can derive $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ it must also be the case that you can derive $xequiv y$.
Here's an example that I think may be more along the lines you have in mind which shows that the answer to the question you probably meant to ask is "no". Suppose $A$ is a contractible type, so that for any $x,y:A$ we have $x=y$. In fact, if $A$ is contractible then the type $x=y$ is also contractible. Thus, for $x,y:A$ we have some $p_1:x=y$, and for any $q_1:x=y$ we have $p_2:p_1=q_1$; and for any $q_2:p_1=q_1$ we have $p_3:p_2=q_2$; and so on. But this doesn't imply $xequiv y$. For instance, we could take $A = sum_{b:S^1} (b={rm base})$; then $A$ is contractible, but the two points $({rm base},{rm refl})$ and $({rm base},{rm loop})$ of $A$ are not judgmentally equal, since if they were then we would have ${rm refl} equiv {rm loop}$ which cannot be true. (Note that any proof of "judgmental inequality" must also be a meta-argument that "judgmental equality is not derivable", since the formal system of type theory does not allow derivations of judgmental inequality.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Okay. So is it right to say that, as meta-arguments, (1) $x equiv y$ iff they are propositionally equal and the proof is judgementally $text{refl}$, and (2) being propositionally equal to $text{refl}$ isn't especially meaningful, since it must actually judgementally be reflection, by the syntactic trickery you talked about? Your answer made some things click for me, I think. Now that I actually think about it, I'm not entirely sure what I was going for when I talked about something being propositionally equal to reflexivity. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:19
$begingroup$
And it doesn't matter if you use homogenous or "heterogenous" equality here, right? If you actually have a term $a = b$, then they have to have the same type; it doesn't matter if you can construct types $(a:A) = (b:B)$, since they are by necessity empty if $A notequiv B$. Is that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:24
$begingroup$
@greatBigDot I believe (1) is basically correct (although I am not an expert in the syntactic trickery, so there could be caveats needed). But I think (2) is mixing levels: what I said is that if $p:x=y$, you can only even talk about whether $p$ is propositionally equal to refl if you know that $x$ and $y$ are judgmentally equal; but that doesn't imply that $p$ is judgmentally equal to refl. In homotopy type theory it is a meaningful question to ask whether a given loop $p:x=x$ is propositionally equal to refl; sometimes the answer will be yes and sometimes no.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:13
$begingroup$
Re your second comment, there are many different things that might be meant by "heterogeneous equality". Arguably the most natural notion of heterogeneous propositional equality in HoTT between $a:A$ and $b:B$ consists of an equivalence $Asimeq B$ that carries $a$ to $b$. In particular, because of univalence, it's not possible to propositionally distinguish equivalent types, so you can't have a type "$(a:A) = (b:B)$" that can "tell" whether $A$ and $B$ are judgmentally equal.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:15
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I think the answer to your question (existentially reformulated) is "yes", but not for the reason you probably think. In fact as soon as you have $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$, it must be that $xequiv y$. The reason is that equality is "homogeneous": it only makes sense to talk about whether $x=y$ once you know that $x$ and $y$ have the same type (hence why we sometimes write $x=_A y$). So in particular, it only makes sense to talk about $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ once you know that $p_1$ and ${rm refl}$ have the same type. But $p_1$ has type $x=y$ and ${rm refl}_x$ (say) has type $x=x$, while terms have unique types (modulo subtleties like subtyping and universe cumulativity) so it must be that the types $x=y$ and $x=x$ are (judgmentally) equal, $(x=y)equiv (x=x)$. Finally, type constructors are (judgmentally) injective, so for instance $(a=b) equiv (c=d)$ can only happen if $aequiv c$ and $bequiv d$; hence in this case we must have $yequiv x$.
The reason I say that this is probably not what you're thinking about is that it's basically syntactic trickery, due to the way that the syntax is usually formulated and the fairly finicky properties (like unique types and injectivity of type formers) that it usually has. Moreover, these properties are "admissible" rather than "derivable", which means that the above argument is not a proof inside HoTT (or more precisely a "derivation"), rather it is a meta-argument about derivability: whenever you can derive $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ it must also be the case that you can derive $xequiv y$.
Here's an example that I think may be more along the lines you have in mind which shows that the answer to the question you probably meant to ask is "no". Suppose $A$ is a contractible type, so that for any $x,y:A$ we have $x=y$. In fact, if $A$ is contractible then the type $x=y$ is also contractible. Thus, for $x,y:A$ we have some $p_1:x=y$, and for any $q_1:x=y$ we have $p_2:p_1=q_1$; and for any $q_2:p_1=q_1$ we have $p_3:p_2=q_2$; and so on. But this doesn't imply $xequiv y$. For instance, we could take $A = sum_{b:S^1} (b={rm base})$; then $A$ is contractible, but the two points $({rm base},{rm refl})$ and $({rm base},{rm loop})$ of $A$ are not judgmentally equal, since if they were then we would have ${rm refl} equiv {rm loop}$ which cannot be true. (Note that any proof of "judgmental inequality" must also be a meta-argument that "judgmental equality is not derivable", since the formal system of type theory does not allow derivations of judgmental inequality.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Okay. So is it right to say that, as meta-arguments, (1) $x equiv y$ iff they are propositionally equal and the proof is judgementally $text{refl}$, and (2) being propositionally equal to $text{refl}$ isn't especially meaningful, since it must actually judgementally be reflection, by the syntactic trickery you talked about? Your answer made some things click for me, I think. Now that I actually think about it, I'm not entirely sure what I was going for when I talked about something being propositionally equal to reflexivity. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:19
$begingroup$
And it doesn't matter if you use homogenous or "heterogenous" equality here, right? If you actually have a term $a = b$, then they have to have the same type; it doesn't matter if you can construct types $(a:A) = (b:B)$, since they are by necessity empty if $A notequiv B$. Is that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:24
$begingroup$
@greatBigDot I believe (1) is basically correct (although I am not an expert in the syntactic trickery, so there could be caveats needed). But I think (2) is mixing levels: what I said is that if $p:x=y$, you can only even talk about whether $p$ is propositionally equal to refl if you know that $x$ and $y$ are judgmentally equal; but that doesn't imply that $p$ is judgmentally equal to refl. In homotopy type theory it is a meaningful question to ask whether a given loop $p:x=x$ is propositionally equal to refl; sometimes the answer will be yes and sometimes no.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:13
$begingroup$
Re your second comment, there are many different things that might be meant by "heterogeneous equality". Arguably the most natural notion of heterogeneous propositional equality in HoTT between $a:A$ and $b:B$ consists of an equivalence $Asimeq B$ that carries $a$ to $b$. In particular, because of univalence, it's not possible to propositionally distinguish equivalent types, so you can't have a type "$(a:A) = (b:B)$" that can "tell" whether $A$ and $B$ are judgmentally equal.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:15
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I think the answer to your question (existentially reformulated) is "yes", but not for the reason you probably think. In fact as soon as you have $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$, it must be that $xequiv y$. The reason is that equality is "homogeneous": it only makes sense to talk about whether $x=y$ once you know that $x$ and $y$ have the same type (hence why we sometimes write $x=_A y$). So in particular, it only makes sense to talk about $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ once you know that $p_1$ and ${rm refl}$ have the same type. But $p_1$ has type $x=y$ and ${rm refl}_x$ (say) has type $x=x$, while terms have unique types (modulo subtleties like subtyping and universe cumulativity) so it must be that the types $x=y$ and $x=x$ are (judgmentally) equal, $(x=y)equiv (x=x)$. Finally, type constructors are (judgmentally) injective, so for instance $(a=b) equiv (c=d)$ can only happen if $aequiv c$ and $bequiv d$; hence in this case we must have $yequiv x$.
The reason I say that this is probably not what you're thinking about is that it's basically syntactic trickery, due to the way that the syntax is usually formulated and the fairly finicky properties (like unique types and injectivity of type formers) that it usually has. Moreover, these properties are "admissible" rather than "derivable", which means that the above argument is not a proof inside HoTT (or more precisely a "derivation"), rather it is a meta-argument about derivability: whenever you can derive $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ it must also be the case that you can derive $xequiv y$.
Here's an example that I think may be more along the lines you have in mind which shows that the answer to the question you probably meant to ask is "no". Suppose $A$ is a contractible type, so that for any $x,y:A$ we have $x=y$. In fact, if $A$ is contractible then the type $x=y$ is also contractible. Thus, for $x,y:A$ we have some $p_1:x=y$, and for any $q_1:x=y$ we have $p_2:p_1=q_1$; and for any $q_2:p_1=q_1$ we have $p_3:p_2=q_2$; and so on. But this doesn't imply $xequiv y$. For instance, we could take $A = sum_{b:S^1} (b={rm base})$; then $A$ is contractible, but the two points $({rm base},{rm refl})$ and $({rm base},{rm loop})$ of $A$ are not judgmentally equal, since if they were then we would have ${rm refl} equiv {rm loop}$ which cannot be true. (Note that any proof of "judgmental inequality" must also be a meta-argument that "judgmental equality is not derivable", since the formal system of type theory does not allow derivations of judgmental inequality.)
$endgroup$
I think the answer to your question (existentially reformulated) is "yes", but not for the reason you probably think. In fact as soon as you have $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$, it must be that $xequiv y$. The reason is that equality is "homogeneous": it only makes sense to talk about whether $x=y$ once you know that $x$ and $y$ have the same type (hence why we sometimes write $x=_A y$). So in particular, it only makes sense to talk about $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ once you know that $p_1$ and ${rm refl}$ have the same type. But $p_1$ has type $x=y$ and ${rm refl}_x$ (say) has type $x=x$, while terms have unique types (modulo subtleties like subtyping and universe cumulativity) so it must be that the types $x=y$ and $x=x$ are (judgmentally) equal, $(x=y)equiv (x=x)$. Finally, type constructors are (judgmentally) injective, so for instance $(a=b) equiv (c=d)$ can only happen if $aequiv c$ and $bequiv d$; hence in this case we must have $yequiv x$.
The reason I say that this is probably not what you're thinking about is that it's basically syntactic trickery, due to the way that the syntax is usually formulated and the fairly finicky properties (like unique types and injectivity of type formers) that it usually has. Moreover, these properties are "admissible" rather than "derivable", which means that the above argument is not a proof inside HoTT (or more precisely a "derivation"), rather it is a meta-argument about derivability: whenever you can derive $p_1:x=y$ and $p_2:p_1={rm refl}$ it must also be the case that you can derive $xequiv y$.
Here's an example that I think may be more along the lines you have in mind which shows that the answer to the question you probably meant to ask is "no". Suppose $A$ is a contractible type, so that for any $x,y:A$ we have $x=y$. In fact, if $A$ is contractible then the type $x=y$ is also contractible. Thus, for $x,y:A$ we have some $p_1:x=y$, and for any $q_1:x=y$ we have $p_2:p_1=q_1$; and for any $q_2:p_1=q_1$ we have $p_3:p_2=q_2$; and so on. But this doesn't imply $xequiv y$. For instance, we could take $A = sum_{b:S^1} (b={rm base})$; then $A$ is contractible, but the two points $({rm base},{rm refl})$ and $({rm base},{rm loop})$ of $A$ are not judgmentally equal, since if they were then we would have ${rm refl} equiv {rm loop}$ which cannot be true. (Note that any proof of "judgmental inequality" must also be a meta-argument that "judgmental equality is not derivable", since the formal system of type theory does not allow derivations of judgmental inequality.)
answered Dec 11 '18 at 3:46
Mike ShulmanMike Shulman
2,395720
2,395720
$begingroup$
Okay. So is it right to say that, as meta-arguments, (1) $x equiv y$ iff they are propositionally equal and the proof is judgementally $text{refl}$, and (2) being propositionally equal to $text{refl}$ isn't especially meaningful, since it must actually judgementally be reflection, by the syntactic trickery you talked about? Your answer made some things click for me, I think. Now that I actually think about it, I'm not entirely sure what I was going for when I talked about something being propositionally equal to reflexivity. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:19
$begingroup$
And it doesn't matter if you use homogenous or "heterogenous" equality here, right? If you actually have a term $a = b$, then they have to have the same type; it doesn't matter if you can construct types $(a:A) = (b:B)$, since they are by necessity empty if $A notequiv B$. Is that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:24
$begingroup$
@greatBigDot I believe (1) is basically correct (although I am not an expert in the syntactic trickery, so there could be caveats needed). But I think (2) is mixing levels: what I said is that if $p:x=y$, you can only even talk about whether $p$ is propositionally equal to refl if you know that $x$ and $y$ are judgmentally equal; but that doesn't imply that $p$ is judgmentally equal to refl. In homotopy type theory it is a meaningful question to ask whether a given loop $p:x=x$ is propositionally equal to refl; sometimes the answer will be yes and sometimes no.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:13
$begingroup$
Re your second comment, there are many different things that might be meant by "heterogeneous equality". Arguably the most natural notion of heterogeneous propositional equality in HoTT between $a:A$ and $b:B$ consists of an equivalence $Asimeq B$ that carries $a$ to $b$. In particular, because of univalence, it's not possible to propositionally distinguish equivalent types, so you can't have a type "$(a:A) = (b:B)$" that can "tell" whether $A$ and $B$ are judgmentally equal.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:15
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Okay. So is it right to say that, as meta-arguments, (1) $x equiv y$ iff they are propositionally equal and the proof is judgementally $text{refl}$, and (2) being propositionally equal to $text{refl}$ isn't especially meaningful, since it must actually judgementally be reflection, by the syntactic trickery you talked about? Your answer made some things click for me, I think. Now that I actually think about it, I'm not entirely sure what I was going for when I talked about something being propositionally equal to reflexivity. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:19
$begingroup$
And it doesn't matter if you use homogenous or "heterogenous" equality here, right? If you actually have a term $a = b$, then they have to have the same type; it doesn't matter if you can construct types $(a:A) = (b:B)$, since they are by necessity empty if $A notequiv B$. Is that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:24
$begingroup$
@greatBigDot I believe (1) is basically correct (although I am not an expert in the syntactic trickery, so there could be caveats needed). But I think (2) is mixing levels: what I said is that if $p:x=y$, you can only even talk about whether $p$ is propositionally equal to refl if you know that $x$ and $y$ are judgmentally equal; but that doesn't imply that $p$ is judgmentally equal to refl. In homotopy type theory it is a meaningful question to ask whether a given loop $p:x=x$ is propositionally equal to refl; sometimes the answer will be yes and sometimes no.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:13
$begingroup$
Re your second comment, there are many different things that might be meant by "heterogeneous equality". Arguably the most natural notion of heterogeneous propositional equality in HoTT between $a:A$ and $b:B$ consists of an equivalence $Asimeq B$ that carries $a$ to $b$. In particular, because of univalence, it's not possible to propositionally distinguish equivalent types, so you can't have a type "$(a:A) = (b:B)$" that can "tell" whether $A$ and $B$ are judgmentally equal.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:15
$begingroup$
Okay. So is it right to say that, as meta-arguments, (1) $x equiv y$ iff they are propositionally equal and the proof is judgementally $text{refl}$, and (2) being propositionally equal to $text{refl}$ isn't especially meaningful, since it must actually judgementally be reflection, by the syntactic trickery you talked about? Your answer made some things click for me, I think. Now that I actually think about it, I'm not entirely sure what I was going for when I talked about something being propositionally equal to reflexivity. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:19
$begingroup$
Okay. So is it right to say that, as meta-arguments, (1) $x equiv y$ iff they are propositionally equal and the proof is judgementally $text{refl}$, and (2) being propositionally equal to $text{refl}$ isn't especially meaningful, since it must actually judgementally be reflection, by the syntactic trickery you talked about? Your answer made some things click for me, I think. Now that I actually think about it, I'm not entirely sure what I was going for when I talked about something being propositionally equal to reflexivity. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:19
$begingroup$
And it doesn't matter if you use homogenous or "heterogenous" equality here, right? If you actually have a term $a = b$, then they have to have the same type; it doesn't matter if you can construct types $(a:A) = (b:B)$, since they are by necessity empty if $A notequiv B$. Is that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:24
$begingroup$
And it doesn't matter if you use homogenous or "heterogenous" equality here, right? If you actually have a term $a = b$, then they have to have the same type; it doesn't matter if you can construct types $(a:A) = (b:B)$, since they are by necessity empty if $A notequiv B$. Is that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 11 '18 at 14:24
$begingroup$
@greatBigDot I believe (1) is basically correct (although I am not an expert in the syntactic trickery, so there could be caveats needed). But I think (2) is mixing levels: what I said is that if $p:x=y$, you can only even talk about whether $p$ is propositionally equal to refl if you know that $x$ and $y$ are judgmentally equal; but that doesn't imply that $p$ is judgmentally equal to refl. In homotopy type theory it is a meaningful question to ask whether a given loop $p:x=x$ is propositionally equal to refl; sometimes the answer will be yes and sometimes no.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:13
$begingroup$
@greatBigDot I believe (1) is basically correct (although I am not an expert in the syntactic trickery, so there could be caveats needed). But I think (2) is mixing levels: what I said is that if $p:x=y$, you can only even talk about whether $p$ is propositionally equal to refl if you know that $x$ and $y$ are judgmentally equal; but that doesn't imply that $p$ is judgmentally equal to refl. In homotopy type theory it is a meaningful question to ask whether a given loop $p:x=x$ is propositionally equal to refl; sometimes the answer will be yes and sometimes no.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:13
$begingroup$
Re your second comment, there are many different things that might be meant by "heterogeneous equality". Arguably the most natural notion of heterogeneous propositional equality in HoTT between $a:A$ and $b:B$ consists of an equivalence $Asimeq B$ that carries $a$ to $b$. In particular, because of univalence, it's not possible to propositionally distinguish equivalent types, so you can't have a type "$(a:A) = (b:B)$" that can "tell" whether $A$ and $B$ are judgmentally equal.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:15
$begingroup$
Re your second comment, there are many different things that might be meant by "heterogeneous equality". Arguably the most natural notion of heterogeneous propositional equality in HoTT between $a:A$ and $b:B$ consists of an equivalence $Asimeq B$ that carries $a$ to $b$. In particular, because of univalence, it's not possible to propositionally distinguish equivalent types, so you can't have a type "$(a:A) = (b:B)$" that can "tell" whether $A$ and $B$ are judgmentally equal.
$endgroup$
– Mike Shulman
Dec 11 '18 at 22:15
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
It's certainly possible to have $x equiv y$ and have $p : x = y$ with $p notequiv mathsf{refl}$ (and even $p ne mathsf{refl}$), for example take $x equiv y equiv mathsf{base} : mathbb{S}^1$ and $p equiv mathsf{loop} : mathsf{base} = mathsf{base}$. The assertion $x equiv y$ is an external judgement: under the homotopy interpretation, HoTT can only detect paths between points, but the assertion $x equiv y$ can be thought of as saying that $x$ and $y$ are 'the same point'—this is not homotopy-invariant, so cannot be internalised.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:37
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Okay, that makes sense. But what if you, like, existentially quantify it? With $x equiv y$, there still exists a $p : x equiv y$ that's judgementally reflection, right? So is $x equiv y$ iff there exists a $p : x = y$ such that $p equiv text{refl}$? That doesn't internalize $equiv$, since it appears on the right side of the "iff" too, so if true it wouldn't violate what you said about the impossibility of internalizing $equiv$---do I have that right?
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 13:55
$begingroup$
(Careful—you've written "$p : x equiv y$", but $x equiv y$ is not a type!) If $x equiv y$ then $x$ and $y$ are quite literally ('definitionally') the same term, so $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$. But you cannot conclude $x equiv y$ from the judgement $mathrm{refl}_x : x = y$.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 13:59
$begingroup$
@CliveNewstead Oops, typo. My bad! Wish you could edit comments after 5 minutes or whatever.... I think I see what you're saying. Is the visual I described in my post the right picture to have in mind? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like it is.
$endgroup$
– greatBigDot
Dec 10 '18 at 14:07
1
$begingroup$
The answer to your edited question is still 'no'. For example take terms $x,y : A$ such that (externally) $x notequiv y$ but (internally) $mathrm{refl}_x : x =_A y$, define $p_1 equiv mathrm{refl}_x$ and $p_i equiv mathrm{refl}_{p_{i-1}}$ for each $i > 1$. I think the issue is that you're thinking about types in HoTT too literally as 'spaces', when really they behave more like 'fundamental $infty$-groupoids of spaces'. The view of a type as a disjoint union of path-connected components is too simplistic.
$endgroup$
– Clive Newstead
Dec 10 '18 at 15:02