An “open-strict” Version of Hahn Banach Separation Theorem?
$begingroup$
Is the following statement true?
Let $X$ be a real linear space, $A,B subset X$ two disjoint convex sets with the following "algebraic openness" property: Every $x in A$ is an internal point of A, and so is every point of B and internal point of B. Then there exists a linear functional $f:X rightarrow mathbb{R}$ and $t in mathbb{R}$ such that for all $x in A, y in B$ we have
$$ f(x) < t < f(y)$$
A similar version (but in the context of TVS and one of the sets is open) is given in Wikipedia, Note that it only admits a "half strict" separation. I believe that it is still true when topological openness is replaced by the "algebraic openness" definition given here, but the question is if I assume both sets are "algebraically open", is it true that I can get a strict separation from both sides? Any help is appreciated.
functional-analysis convex-analysis hahn-banach-theorem
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Is the following statement true?
Let $X$ be a real linear space, $A,B subset X$ two disjoint convex sets with the following "algebraic openness" property: Every $x in A$ is an internal point of A, and so is every point of B and internal point of B. Then there exists a linear functional $f:X rightarrow mathbb{R}$ and $t in mathbb{R}$ such that for all $x in A, y in B$ we have
$$ f(x) < t < f(y)$$
A similar version (but in the context of TVS and one of the sets is open) is given in Wikipedia, Note that it only admits a "half strict" separation. I believe that it is still true when topological openness is replaced by the "algebraic openness" definition given here, but the question is if I assume both sets are "algebraically open", is it true that I can get a strict separation from both sides? Any help is appreciated.
functional-analysis convex-analysis hahn-banach-theorem
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Is the following statement true?
Let $X$ be a real linear space, $A,B subset X$ two disjoint convex sets with the following "algebraic openness" property: Every $x in A$ is an internal point of A, and so is every point of B and internal point of B. Then there exists a linear functional $f:X rightarrow mathbb{R}$ and $t in mathbb{R}$ such that for all $x in A, y in B$ we have
$$ f(x) < t < f(y)$$
A similar version (but in the context of TVS and one of the sets is open) is given in Wikipedia, Note that it only admits a "half strict" separation. I believe that it is still true when topological openness is replaced by the "algebraic openness" definition given here, but the question is if I assume both sets are "algebraically open", is it true that I can get a strict separation from both sides? Any help is appreciated.
functional-analysis convex-analysis hahn-banach-theorem
$endgroup$
Is the following statement true?
Let $X$ be a real linear space, $A,B subset X$ two disjoint convex sets with the following "algebraic openness" property: Every $x in A$ is an internal point of A, and so is every point of B and internal point of B. Then there exists a linear functional $f:X rightarrow mathbb{R}$ and $t in mathbb{R}$ such that for all $x in A, y in B$ we have
$$ f(x) < t < f(y)$$
A similar version (but in the context of TVS and one of the sets is open) is given in Wikipedia, Note that it only admits a "half strict" separation. I believe that it is still true when topological openness is replaced by the "algebraic openness" definition given here, but the question is if I assume both sets are "algebraically open", is it true that I can get a strict separation from both sides? Any help is appreciated.
functional-analysis convex-analysis hahn-banach-theorem
functional-analysis convex-analysis hahn-banach-theorem
asked Jan 1 at 20:21
pitariverpitariver
444213
444213
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
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$begingroup$
IMPORTANT EDIT: A theorem related to the question stated in the OP can be found here. Theorem 4 states: If $A$ and $B$ are disjoint convex sets in $X$ and $A$ has an internal point, then $A$ and $B$ can be (weakly) separated. That is, there exists $f:Xrightarrowmathbb{R}$ such that $$sup_{ain A}f(a)leqinf_{bin B}f(b).$$
EDIT 2: We can use this theorem to answer the question in the OP. This follows from the following proposition.
Proposition: Let $f:Xtomathbb{R}$ be linear and non-zero. Then for any $A$ obeying the "algebraic openness" property, we have that $f(A)$ is open.
Proof: Let $tin f(A)$. So $f(a)=t$ for some $ain A$. Because $f$ is non-zero, we find some $xin X$ such that $f(x)>0$. By the "algebraic openness" property of $A$, there exists $varepsilon>0$ such that $a+(-varepsilon,varepsilon)cdot xsubset A$. Hence, $(t-varepsilon f(x),t+varepsilon f(x))subseteq f(A)$, so $f(A)$ is open.
Combining the two results, we have for all $ain A$ and $bin B$ that $$f(a)<sup_{alphain A}f(alpha)leqinf_{betain B}f(beta)<f(b).$$
ORIGINAL ANSWER: The set of all sets with your "algebraic openness" property makes $X$ a topological vector space. Hence, if $A$ and $B$ are disjoint, convex and open in this topology, then there exists a continuous linear functional $phi$ and a constant $sinmathbb{R}$ such that $phi(a)<sleqphi(b)$ for all $ain A$ and $bin B$. But there also exists a continuous linear functional $psi$ and a constant $tinmathbb{R}$ such that $psi(b)<tleqpsi(a)$ for all $bin B$ and $ain A$. Then $f:=phi-psi$ is a continuous linear functional such that $f(a)<s-t<f(b)$ holds for all $ain A$ and $bin B$.
EDIT 3: We now know that the "algebraic openness" property does not define a topological vector space. Do algebraically open sets define a vector space topology?
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Roughly speaking, scalar multiplication is continuous exactly by the "algebraically openness" property, and vector addition is continuous because the property is invariant under translation.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 0:25
$begingroup$
@SimleyCraft I a m still not sure it's necessarily true (in anycase I understand how to solve the problem with the $phi - psi$ argument). For example why should scalar mult be continues? let $x_0 in X, lambda_0 in mathbb{R}, lambda_0 x_0 in U$ open, you would want a neighborhood of $x_0$, V, for which there exists $delta>0$, $vert lambda - lambda_0 vert < delta implies lambda V subset U$
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 6:03
$begingroup$
@pitariver I must admit I underestimated the difficulty of proving this fact. I did already realize the problems you mentioned, but I had some ideas of proving this, however they did not work after all. I edited the post with a new answer. However I would still love to know whether the "algebraic openness" defines a linear topology.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Thanks for the link, though sadly, it still doesn't solve the problem: I asked about a strict separation, yet Theorem 4 in the paper only guarantees "weak" separation(which I already heard of). The counter example given immediately after the theorem also doesn't tell us much about this case. I am starting to wonder whether the statement is actually true, even for the "half strict" case.
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:45
$begingroup$
Also in regards to the "algebraically open" sets defining a TVS, I am not entirely sure it's true. Thanks for the attention so far!
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:50
|
show 3 more comments
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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$begingroup$
IMPORTANT EDIT: A theorem related to the question stated in the OP can be found here. Theorem 4 states: If $A$ and $B$ are disjoint convex sets in $X$ and $A$ has an internal point, then $A$ and $B$ can be (weakly) separated. That is, there exists $f:Xrightarrowmathbb{R}$ such that $$sup_{ain A}f(a)leqinf_{bin B}f(b).$$
EDIT 2: We can use this theorem to answer the question in the OP. This follows from the following proposition.
Proposition: Let $f:Xtomathbb{R}$ be linear and non-zero. Then for any $A$ obeying the "algebraic openness" property, we have that $f(A)$ is open.
Proof: Let $tin f(A)$. So $f(a)=t$ for some $ain A$. Because $f$ is non-zero, we find some $xin X$ such that $f(x)>0$. By the "algebraic openness" property of $A$, there exists $varepsilon>0$ such that $a+(-varepsilon,varepsilon)cdot xsubset A$. Hence, $(t-varepsilon f(x),t+varepsilon f(x))subseteq f(A)$, so $f(A)$ is open.
Combining the two results, we have for all $ain A$ and $bin B$ that $$f(a)<sup_{alphain A}f(alpha)leqinf_{betain B}f(beta)<f(b).$$
ORIGINAL ANSWER: The set of all sets with your "algebraic openness" property makes $X$ a topological vector space. Hence, if $A$ and $B$ are disjoint, convex and open in this topology, then there exists a continuous linear functional $phi$ and a constant $sinmathbb{R}$ such that $phi(a)<sleqphi(b)$ for all $ain A$ and $bin B$. But there also exists a continuous linear functional $psi$ and a constant $tinmathbb{R}$ such that $psi(b)<tleqpsi(a)$ for all $bin B$ and $ain A$. Then $f:=phi-psi$ is a continuous linear functional such that $f(a)<s-t<f(b)$ holds for all $ain A$ and $bin B$.
EDIT 3: We now know that the "algebraic openness" property does not define a topological vector space. Do algebraically open sets define a vector space topology?
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Roughly speaking, scalar multiplication is continuous exactly by the "algebraically openness" property, and vector addition is continuous because the property is invariant under translation.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 0:25
$begingroup$
@SimleyCraft I a m still not sure it's necessarily true (in anycase I understand how to solve the problem with the $phi - psi$ argument). For example why should scalar mult be continues? let $x_0 in X, lambda_0 in mathbb{R}, lambda_0 x_0 in U$ open, you would want a neighborhood of $x_0$, V, for which there exists $delta>0$, $vert lambda - lambda_0 vert < delta implies lambda V subset U$
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 6:03
$begingroup$
@pitariver I must admit I underestimated the difficulty of proving this fact. I did already realize the problems you mentioned, but I had some ideas of proving this, however they did not work after all. I edited the post with a new answer. However I would still love to know whether the "algebraic openness" defines a linear topology.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Thanks for the link, though sadly, it still doesn't solve the problem: I asked about a strict separation, yet Theorem 4 in the paper only guarantees "weak" separation(which I already heard of). The counter example given immediately after the theorem also doesn't tell us much about this case. I am starting to wonder whether the statement is actually true, even for the "half strict" case.
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:45
$begingroup$
Also in regards to the "algebraically open" sets defining a TVS, I am not entirely sure it's true. Thanks for the attention so far!
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:50
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
IMPORTANT EDIT: A theorem related to the question stated in the OP can be found here. Theorem 4 states: If $A$ and $B$ are disjoint convex sets in $X$ and $A$ has an internal point, then $A$ and $B$ can be (weakly) separated. That is, there exists $f:Xrightarrowmathbb{R}$ such that $$sup_{ain A}f(a)leqinf_{bin B}f(b).$$
EDIT 2: We can use this theorem to answer the question in the OP. This follows from the following proposition.
Proposition: Let $f:Xtomathbb{R}$ be linear and non-zero. Then for any $A$ obeying the "algebraic openness" property, we have that $f(A)$ is open.
Proof: Let $tin f(A)$. So $f(a)=t$ for some $ain A$. Because $f$ is non-zero, we find some $xin X$ such that $f(x)>0$. By the "algebraic openness" property of $A$, there exists $varepsilon>0$ such that $a+(-varepsilon,varepsilon)cdot xsubset A$. Hence, $(t-varepsilon f(x),t+varepsilon f(x))subseteq f(A)$, so $f(A)$ is open.
Combining the two results, we have for all $ain A$ and $bin B$ that $$f(a)<sup_{alphain A}f(alpha)leqinf_{betain B}f(beta)<f(b).$$
ORIGINAL ANSWER: The set of all sets with your "algebraic openness" property makes $X$ a topological vector space. Hence, if $A$ and $B$ are disjoint, convex and open in this topology, then there exists a continuous linear functional $phi$ and a constant $sinmathbb{R}$ such that $phi(a)<sleqphi(b)$ for all $ain A$ and $bin B$. But there also exists a continuous linear functional $psi$ and a constant $tinmathbb{R}$ such that $psi(b)<tleqpsi(a)$ for all $bin B$ and $ain A$. Then $f:=phi-psi$ is a continuous linear functional such that $f(a)<s-t<f(b)$ holds for all $ain A$ and $bin B$.
EDIT 3: We now know that the "algebraic openness" property does not define a topological vector space. Do algebraically open sets define a vector space topology?
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Roughly speaking, scalar multiplication is continuous exactly by the "algebraically openness" property, and vector addition is continuous because the property is invariant under translation.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 0:25
$begingroup$
@SimleyCraft I a m still not sure it's necessarily true (in anycase I understand how to solve the problem with the $phi - psi$ argument). For example why should scalar mult be continues? let $x_0 in X, lambda_0 in mathbb{R}, lambda_0 x_0 in U$ open, you would want a neighborhood of $x_0$, V, for which there exists $delta>0$, $vert lambda - lambda_0 vert < delta implies lambda V subset U$
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 6:03
$begingroup$
@pitariver I must admit I underestimated the difficulty of proving this fact. I did already realize the problems you mentioned, but I had some ideas of proving this, however they did not work after all. I edited the post with a new answer. However I would still love to know whether the "algebraic openness" defines a linear topology.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Thanks for the link, though sadly, it still doesn't solve the problem: I asked about a strict separation, yet Theorem 4 in the paper only guarantees "weak" separation(which I already heard of). The counter example given immediately after the theorem also doesn't tell us much about this case. I am starting to wonder whether the statement is actually true, even for the "half strict" case.
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:45
$begingroup$
Also in regards to the "algebraically open" sets defining a TVS, I am not entirely sure it's true. Thanks for the attention so far!
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:50
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
IMPORTANT EDIT: A theorem related to the question stated in the OP can be found here. Theorem 4 states: If $A$ and $B$ are disjoint convex sets in $X$ and $A$ has an internal point, then $A$ and $B$ can be (weakly) separated. That is, there exists $f:Xrightarrowmathbb{R}$ such that $$sup_{ain A}f(a)leqinf_{bin B}f(b).$$
EDIT 2: We can use this theorem to answer the question in the OP. This follows from the following proposition.
Proposition: Let $f:Xtomathbb{R}$ be linear and non-zero. Then for any $A$ obeying the "algebraic openness" property, we have that $f(A)$ is open.
Proof: Let $tin f(A)$. So $f(a)=t$ for some $ain A$. Because $f$ is non-zero, we find some $xin X$ such that $f(x)>0$. By the "algebraic openness" property of $A$, there exists $varepsilon>0$ such that $a+(-varepsilon,varepsilon)cdot xsubset A$. Hence, $(t-varepsilon f(x),t+varepsilon f(x))subseteq f(A)$, so $f(A)$ is open.
Combining the two results, we have for all $ain A$ and $bin B$ that $$f(a)<sup_{alphain A}f(alpha)leqinf_{betain B}f(beta)<f(b).$$
ORIGINAL ANSWER: The set of all sets with your "algebraic openness" property makes $X$ a topological vector space. Hence, if $A$ and $B$ are disjoint, convex and open in this topology, then there exists a continuous linear functional $phi$ and a constant $sinmathbb{R}$ such that $phi(a)<sleqphi(b)$ for all $ain A$ and $bin B$. But there also exists a continuous linear functional $psi$ and a constant $tinmathbb{R}$ such that $psi(b)<tleqpsi(a)$ for all $bin B$ and $ain A$. Then $f:=phi-psi$ is a continuous linear functional such that $f(a)<s-t<f(b)$ holds for all $ain A$ and $bin B$.
EDIT 3: We now know that the "algebraic openness" property does not define a topological vector space. Do algebraically open sets define a vector space topology?
$endgroup$
IMPORTANT EDIT: A theorem related to the question stated in the OP can be found here. Theorem 4 states: If $A$ and $B$ are disjoint convex sets in $X$ and $A$ has an internal point, then $A$ and $B$ can be (weakly) separated. That is, there exists $f:Xrightarrowmathbb{R}$ such that $$sup_{ain A}f(a)leqinf_{bin B}f(b).$$
EDIT 2: We can use this theorem to answer the question in the OP. This follows from the following proposition.
Proposition: Let $f:Xtomathbb{R}$ be linear and non-zero. Then for any $A$ obeying the "algebraic openness" property, we have that $f(A)$ is open.
Proof: Let $tin f(A)$. So $f(a)=t$ for some $ain A$. Because $f$ is non-zero, we find some $xin X$ such that $f(x)>0$. By the "algebraic openness" property of $A$, there exists $varepsilon>0$ such that $a+(-varepsilon,varepsilon)cdot xsubset A$. Hence, $(t-varepsilon f(x),t+varepsilon f(x))subseteq f(A)$, so $f(A)$ is open.
Combining the two results, we have for all $ain A$ and $bin B$ that $$f(a)<sup_{alphain A}f(alpha)leqinf_{betain B}f(beta)<f(b).$$
ORIGINAL ANSWER: The set of all sets with your "algebraic openness" property makes $X$ a topological vector space. Hence, if $A$ and $B$ are disjoint, convex and open in this topology, then there exists a continuous linear functional $phi$ and a constant $sinmathbb{R}$ such that $phi(a)<sleqphi(b)$ for all $ain A$ and $bin B$. But there also exists a continuous linear functional $psi$ and a constant $tinmathbb{R}$ such that $psi(b)<tleqpsi(a)$ for all $bin B$ and $ain A$. Then $f:=phi-psi$ is a continuous linear functional such that $f(a)<s-t<f(b)$ holds for all $ain A$ and $bin B$.
EDIT 3: We now know that the "algebraic openness" property does not define a topological vector space. Do algebraically open sets define a vector space topology?
edited Jan 4 at 8:17
answered Jan 1 at 23:13
SmileyCraftSmileyCraft
3,761519
3,761519
$begingroup$
Roughly speaking, scalar multiplication is continuous exactly by the "algebraically openness" property, and vector addition is continuous because the property is invariant under translation.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 0:25
$begingroup$
@SimleyCraft I a m still not sure it's necessarily true (in anycase I understand how to solve the problem with the $phi - psi$ argument). For example why should scalar mult be continues? let $x_0 in X, lambda_0 in mathbb{R}, lambda_0 x_0 in U$ open, you would want a neighborhood of $x_0$, V, for which there exists $delta>0$, $vert lambda - lambda_0 vert < delta implies lambda V subset U$
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 6:03
$begingroup$
@pitariver I must admit I underestimated the difficulty of proving this fact. I did already realize the problems you mentioned, but I had some ideas of proving this, however they did not work after all. I edited the post with a new answer. However I would still love to know whether the "algebraic openness" defines a linear topology.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Thanks for the link, though sadly, it still doesn't solve the problem: I asked about a strict separation, yet Theorem 4 in the paper only guarantees "weak" separation(which I already heard of). The counter example given immediately after the theorem also doesn't tell us much about this case. I am starting to wonder whether the statement is actually true, even for the "half strict" case.
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:45
$begingroup$
Also in regards to the "algebraically open" sets defining a TVS, I am not entirely sure it's true. Thanks for the attention so far!
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:50
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
Roughly speaking, scalar multiplication is continuous exactly by the "algebraically openness" property, and vector addition is continuous because the property is invariant under translation.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 0:25
$begingroup$
@SimleyCraft I a m still not sure it's necessarily true (in anycase I understand how to solve the problem with the $phi - psi$ argument). For example why should scalar mult be continues? let $x_0 in X, lambda_0 in mathbb{R}, lambda_0 x_0 in U$ open, you would want a neighborhood of $x_0$, V, for which there exists $delta>0$, $vert lambda - lambda_0 vert < delta implies lambda V subset U$
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 6:03
$begingroup$
@pitariver I must admit I underestimated the difficulty of proving this fact. I did already realize the problems you mentioned, but I had some ideas of proving this, however they did not work after all. I edited the post with a new answer. However I would still love to know whether the "algebraic openness" defines a linear topology.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Thanks for the link, though sadly, it still doesn't solve the problem: I asked about a strict separation, yet Theorem 4 in the paper only guarantees "weak" separation(which I already heard of). The counter example given immediately after the theorem also doesn't tell us much about this case. I am starting to wonder whether the statement is actually true, even for the "half strict" case.
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:45
$begingroup$
Also in regards to the "algebraically open" sets defining a TVS, I am not entirely sure it's true. Thanks for the attention so far!
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:50
$begingroup$
Roughly speaking, scalar multiplication is continuous exactly by the "algebraically openness" property, and vector addition is continuous because the property is invariant under translation.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 0:25
$begingroup$
Roughly speaking, scalar multiplication is continuous exactly by the "algebraically openness" property, and vector addition is continuous because the property is invariant under translation.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 0:25
$begingroup$
@SimleyCraft I a m still not sure it's necessarily true (in anycase I understand how to solve the problem with the $phi - psi$ argument). For example why should scalar mult be continues? let $x_0 in X, lambda_0 in mathbb{R}, lambda_0 x_0 in U$ open, you would want a neighborhood of $x_0$, V, for which there exists $delta>0$, $vert lambda - lambda_0 vert < delta implies lambda V subset U$
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 6:03
$begingroup$
@SimleyCraft I a m still not sure it's necessarily true (in anycase I understand how to solve the problem with the $phi - psi$ argument). For example why should scalar mult be continues? let $x_0 in X, lambda_0 in mathbb{R}, lambda_0 x_0 in U$ open, you would want a neighborhood of $x_0$, V, for which there exists $delta>0$, $vert lambda - lambda_0 vert < delta implies lambda V subset U$
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 6:03
$begingroup$
@pitariver I must admit I underestimated the difficulty of proving this fact. I did already realize the problems you mentioned, but I had some ideas of proving this, however they did not work after all. I edited the post with a new answer. However I would still love to know whether the "algebraic openness" defines a linear topology.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 15:11
$begingroup$
@pitariver I must admit I underestimated the difficulty of proving this fact. I did already realize the problems you mentioned, but I had some ideas of proving this, however they did not work after all. I edited the post with a new answer. However I would still love to know whether the "algebraic openness" defines a linear topology.
$endgroup$
– SmileyCraft
Jan 3 at 15:11
$begingroup$
Thanks for the link, though sadly, it still doesn't solve the problem: I asked about a strict separation, yet Theorem 4 in the paper only guarantees "weak" separation(which I already heard of). The counter example given immediately after the theorem also doesn't tell us much about this case. I am starting to wonder whether the statement is actually true, even for the "half strict" case.
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:45
$begingroup$
Thanks for the link, though sadly, it still doesn't solve the problem: I asked about a strict separation, yet Theorem 4 in the paper only guarantees "weak" separation(which I already heard of). The counter example given immediately after the theorem also doesn't tell us much about this case. I am starting to wonder whether the statement is actually true, even for the "half strict" case.
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:45
$begingroup$
Also in regards to the "algebraically open" sets defining a TVS, I am not entirely sure it's true. Thanks for the attention so far!
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:50
$begingroup$
Also in regards to the "algebraically open" sets defining a TVS, I am not entirely sure it's true. Thanks for the attention so far!
$endgroup$
– pitariver
Jan 3 at 18:50
|
show 3 more comments
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