Constructing a polynomial given the Galois Group of it's splitting field











up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1












Let $red_p : mathbb{Z}[x]tomathbb{Z}/(p)[x]$ be the canonical ring morphism sending a polynomial with integer coefficients to a polynomial with integer coefficients modulo $p$, with $p$ a prime, by taking modulo to each coefficient.
My objective is to find a polynomial $finmathbb{Z}[x]$ of degree $8$ such that $mathrm{Gal}(F/mathbb{Q})cong S_8$, where $F$ denotes the splitting field of $f$ over $mathbb{Q}$, and such that $red_7(f)$ is irreducible in $mathbb{Z}/(7)[x]$. I don't even know how to begin. Any help would be greatly appreciated.



I've made some attemps to construct an 8 degree polynomial such that $mathrm{Gal}(F/mathbb{Q})cong S_8$ but I can't seem to solve that problem either. I think that would be a great starting point.










share|cite|improve this question






















  • Replace $S_8$ by $S_3$. Take $f in mathbb{Z}[x], deg(f) = 3$ with $f in mathbb{Z}/(p)[x] $ irreducible. Thus $f in mathbb{Z}[x]$ is irreducible and $R = mathbb{Z}[x]/(f(x))$ is an integral domain. Then let $g(y) = frac{f(y)}{y-x} in R[y]$ and assume $g(y) in R/(q)[y]$ is irreducible (note we can change $gbmod q$ without changing $f bmod p$), thus $g(y) in R[y]$ is irreducible and $R[y]/(g(y))$ is an integral domain. Whence $F = Frac(R[y]/(g(y)))$ is the splitting field of $f(x) in mathbb{Q}[x]$ and $[F:mathbb{Q}] = 6$ implies $Gal(F/mathbb{Q}) = S_3$.
    – reuns
    yesterday








  • 2




    Are you familiar with Dedekind's theorem on the relation between irreducible factors of $f$ mod primes and cycle types of the elements of $operatorname{Gal}(f)$? This would suggest to start with an irreducible polynomial in $Bbb{Z}/7Bbb{Z}[X]$ and lift it to $Bbb{Z}[X]$; this will give you a Galois group with a $7$-cycle. Then it does not take much to get all of $S_8$, e.g. a transposition will do.
    – Servaes
    yesterday












  • *In the above it should say $8$-cycle in stead of $7$-cycle.
    – Servaes
    yesterday















up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1












Let $red_p : mathbb{Z}[x]tomathbb{Z}/(p)[x]$ be the canonical ring morphism sending a polynomial with integer coefficients to a polynomial with integer coefficients modulo $p$, with $p$ a prime, by taking modulo to each coefficient.
My objective is to find a polynomial $finmathbb{Z}[x]$ of degree $8$ such that $mathrm{Gal}(F/mathbb{Q})cong S_8$, where $F$ denotes the splitting field of $f$ over $mathbb{Q}$, and such that $red_7(f)$ is irreducible in $mathbb{Z}/(7)[x]$. I don't even know how to begin. Any help would be greatly appreciated.



I've made some attemps to construct an 8 degree polynomial such that $mathrm{Gal}(F/mathbb{Q})cong S_8$ but I can't seem to solve that problem either. I think that would be a great starting point.










share|cite|improve this question






















  • Replace $S_8$ by $S_3$. Take $f in mathbb{Z}[x], deg(f) = 3$ with $f in mathbb{Z}/(p)[x] $ irreducible. Thus $f in mathbb{Z}[x]$ is irreducible and $R = mathbb{Z}[x]/(f(x))$ is an integral domain. Then let $g(y) = frac{f(y)}{y-x} in R[y]$ and assume $g(y) in R/(q)[y]$ is irreducible (note we can change $gbmod q$ without changing $f bmod p$), thus $g(y) in R[y]$ is irreducible and $R[y]/(g(y))$ is an integral domain. Whence $F = Frac(R[y]/(g(y)))$ is the splitting field of $f(x) in mathbb{Q}[x]$ and $[F:mathbb{Q}] = 6$ implies $Gal(F/mathbb{Q}) = S_3$.
    – reuns
    yesterday








  • 2




    Are you familiar with Dedekind's theorem on the relation between irreducible factors of $f$ mod primes and cycle types of the elements of $operatorname{Gal}(f)$? This would suggest to start with an irreducible polynomial in $Bbb{Z}/7Bbb{Z}[X]$ and lift it to $Bbb{Z}[X]$; this will give you a Galois group with a $7$-cycle. Then it does not take much to get all of $S_8$, e.g. a transposition will do.
    – Servaes
    yesterday












  • *In the above it should say $8$-cycle in stead of $7$-cycle.
    – Servaes
    yesterday













up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1






1





Let $red_p : mathbb{Z}[x]tomathbb{Z}/(p)[x]$ be the canonical ring morphism sending a polynomial with integer coefficients to a polynomial with integer coefficients modulo $p$, with $p$ a prime, by taking modulo to each coefficient.
My objective is to find a polynomial $finmathbb{Z}[x]$ of degree $8$ such that $mathrm{Gal}(F/mathbb{Q})cong S_8$, where $F$ denotes the splitting field of $f$ over $mathbb{Q}$, and such that $red_7(f)$ is irreducible in $mathbb{Z}/(7)[x]$. I don't even know how to begin. Any help would be greatly appreciated.



I've made some attemps to construct an 8 degree polynomial such that $mathrm{Gal}(F/mathbb{Q})cong S_8$ but I can't seem to solve that problem either. I think that would be a great starting point.










share|cite|improve this question













Let $red_p : mathbb{Z}[x]tomathbb{Z}/(p)[x]$ be the canonical ring morphism sending a polynomial with integer coefficients to a polynomial with integer coefficients modulo $p$, with $p$ a prime, by taking modulo to each coefficient.
My objective is to find a polynomial $finmathbb{Z}[x]$ of degree $8$ such that $mathrm{Gal}(F/mathbb{Q})cong S_8$, where $F$ denotes the splitting field of $f$ over $mathbb{Q}$, and such that $red_7(f)$ is irreducible in $mathbb{Z}/(7)[x]$. I don't even know how to begin. Any help would be greatly appreciated.



I've made some attemps to construct an 8 degree polynomial such that $mathrm{Gal}(F/mathbb{Q})cong S_8$ but I can't seem to solve that problem either. I think that would be a great starting point.







polynomials ring-theory field-theory galois-theory automorphism-group






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked yesterday









Ray Bern

1109




1109












  • Replace $S_8$ by $S_3$. Take $f in mathbb{Z}[x], deg(f) = 3$ with $f in mathbb{Z}/(p)[x] $ irreducible. Thus $f in mathbb{Z}[x]$ is irreducible and $R = mathbb{Z}[x]/(f(x))$ is an integral domain. Then let $g(y) = frac{f(y)}{y-x} in R[y]$ and assume $g(y) in R/(q)[y]$ is irreducible (note we can change $gbmod q$ without changing $f bmod p$), thus $g(y) in R[y]$ is irreducible and $R[y]/(g(y))$ is an integral domain. Whence $F = Frac(R[y]/(g(y)))$ is the splitting field of $f(x) in mathbb{Q}[x]$ and $[F:mathbb{Q}] = 6$ implies $Gal(F/mathbb{Q}) = S_3$.
    – reuns
    yesterday








  • 2




    Are you familiar with Dedekind's theorem on the relation between irreducible factors of $f$ mod primes and cycle types of the elements of $operatorname{Gal}(f)$? This would suggest to start with an irreducible polynomial in $Bbb{Z}/7Bbb{Z}[X]$ and lift it to $Bbb{Z}[X]$; this will give you a Galois group with a $7$-cycle. Then it does not take much to get all of $S_8$, e.g. a transposition will do.
    – Servaes
    yesterday












  • *In the above it should say $8$-cycle in stead of $7$-cycle.
    – Servaes
    yesterday


















  • Replace $S_8$ by $S_3$. Take $f in mathbb{Z}[x], deg(f) = 3$ with $f in mathbb{Z}/(p)[x] $ irreducible. Thus $f in mathbb{Z}[x]$ is irreducible and $R = mathbb{Z}[x]/(f(x))$ is an integral domain. Then let $g(y) = frac{f(y)}{y-x} in R[y]$ and assume $g(y) in R/(q)[y]$ is irreducible (note we can change $gbmod q$ without changing $f bmod p$), thus $g(y) in R[y]$ is irreducible and $R[y]/(g(y))$ is an integral domain. Whence $F = Frac(R[y]/(g(y)))$ is the splitting field of $f(x) in mathbb{Q}[x]$ and $[F:mathbb{Q}] = 6$ implies $Gal(F/mathbb{Q}) = S_3$.
    – reuns
    yesterday








  • 2




    Are you familiar with Dedekind's theorem on the relation between irreducible factors of $f$ mod primes and cycle types of the elements of $operatorname{Gal}(f)$? This would suggest to start with an irreducible polynomial in $Bbb{Z}/7Bbb{Z}[X]$ and lift it to $Bbb{Z}[X]$; this will give you a Galois group with a $7$-cycle. Then it does not take much to get all of $S_8$, e.g. a transposition will do.
    – Servaes
    yesterday












  • *In the above it should say $8$-cycle in stead of $7$-cycle.
    – Servaes
    yesterday
















Replace $S_8$ by $S_3$. Take $f in mathbb{Z}[x], deg(f) = 3$ with $f in mathbb{Z}/(p)[x] $ irreducible. Thus $f in mathbb{Z}[x]$ is irreducible and $R = mathbb{Z}[x]/(f(x))$ is an integral domain. Then let $g(y) = frac{f(y)}{y-x} in R[y]$ and assume $g(y) in R/(q)[y]$ is irreducible (note we can change $gbmod q$ without changing $f bmod p$), thus $g(y) in R[y]$ is irreducible and $R[y]/(g(y))$ is an integral domain. Whence $F = Frac(R[y]/(g(y)))$ is the splitting field of $f(x) in mathbb{Q}[x]$ and $[F:mathbb{Q}] = 6$ implies $Gal(F/mathbb{Q}) = S_3$.
– reuns
yesterday






Replace $S_8$ by $S_3$. Take $f in mathbb{Z}[x], deg(f) = 3$ with $f in mathbb{Z}/(p)[x] $ irreducible. Thus $f in mathbb{Z}[x]$ is irreducible and $R = mathbb{Z}[x]/(f(x))$ is an integral domain. Then let $g(y) = frac{f(y)}{y-x} in R[y]$ and assume $g(y) in R/(q)[y]$ is irreducible (note we can change $gbmod q$ without changing $f bmod p$), thus $g(y) in R[y]$ is irreducible and $R[y]/(g(y))$ is an integral domain. Whence $F = Frac(R[y]/(g(y)))$ is the splitting field of $f(x) in mathbb{Q}[x]$ and $[F:mathbb{Q}] = 6$ implies $Gal(F/mathbb{Q}) = S_3$.
– reuns
yesterday






2




2




Are you familiar with Dedekind's theorem on the relation between irreducible factors of $f$ mod primes and cycle types of the elements of $operatorname{Gal}(f)$? This would suggest to start with an irreducible polynomial in $Bbb{Z}/7Bbb{Z}[X]$ and lift it to $Bbb{Z}[X]$; this will give you a Galois group with a $7$-cycle. Then it does not take much to get all of $S_8$, e.g. a transposition will do.
– Servaes
yesterday






Are you familiar with Dedekind's theorem on the relation between irreducible factors of $f$ mod primes and cycle types of the elements of $operatorname{Gal}(f)$? This would suggest to start with an irreducible polynomial in $Bbb{Z}/7Bbb{Z}[X]$ and lift it to $Bbb{Z}[X]$; this will give you a Galois group with a $7$-cycle. Then it does not take much to get all of $S_8$, e.g. a transposition will do.
– Servaes
yesterday














*In the above it should say $8$-cycle in stead of $7$-cycle.
– Servaes
yesterday




*In the above it should say $8$-cycle in stead of $7$-cycle.
– Servaes
yesterday










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote













This is not a complete answer, just a start as you indicate that you don't even know where to begin.



Let $finBbb{Z}[x]$ monic. If its image $f_p$ in $Bbb{F}_p[x]$ is separable and factors as $f_p=prod_{i=1}^kg_k$, then $operatorname{Gal}(f)$ contains an element of cycle type $(deg g_1,ldots,deg g_k)$. So it makes sense to start from an irreducibe polynomial $hinBbb{F}_7[x]$ as then any lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ already has an element of order $8$ in $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$. An easy first candidate is
$$h_7=x^8+x+3inBbb{F}_7[x].$$
To make sure we also have a transpotion in $operatorname{Gal}(f)$, we choose a lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ that factors into one quadratic and six linear factors mod $2$. A bit of fiddling around yields, for example
$$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x^7+x^6+x+1)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
so that
$$h_2=x^8+x^7+x^6=x^6(x^2+x+1)inBbb{F}_2[x].$$
which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition. This doesn't quite give you that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})cong S_8$, but gets you on the right track.



EDIT: As pointed out in the comments below $h_2$ is not separable, so this choice of $tilde{h}$ doesn't quite work. I have no doubt the argument can be salvaged, but the result will likely not be as pretty. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.



UPDATE: One way to salvage the argument is to take a larger prime $p$, so that a lift $tilde{h}$ splits into six distinct linear factors and one irreducible quadratic factor. As $degtilde{h}=8$ this requires $pgeq6$, hence $p=11$ is the smallest prime that might work. And indeed, surprisingly little fiddling around shows that the lift
$$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x+8)big((x+3)(x+4)+6(x+1)(x+2)(x+5)(x+10)big)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
satisfies
$$h_p=(x+1)(x+2)(x+3)(x+5)(x+8)(x+10)(x^2+4x+5)inBbb{F}_p[x],$$
which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • How did you find $h_7$?
    – Ray Bern
    yesterday










  • An educated guess; there is quite often a $cinBbb{F}_p$ such that $x^n+x+c$ is irreducible.
    – Servaes
    yesterday












  • A good technique. But I'm afraid I need to complain about $h_2(x)$ not being separable in $Bbb{F}_2[x]$.
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    yesterday










  • @Jyrki You're absolutely right. It seems the argument needs a bigger prime, the computations will likely not be so clean. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.
    – Servaes
    yesterday












  • Many ways to use this idea I think. One way is to specify the factors modulo any finite collection of primes, then do a Chinese remainder theorem combination of the products. And only then lift from $Bbb{Z}_{p_1p_2cdots p_k}$ to $Bbb{Z}$. As you pointed out the end result may not look nice :-)
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    yesterday


















up vote
0
down vote













This example was produced in the first place by randomly generating polynomials and checking the factorizations with computer help (it only took a modest number of polynomials before finding a satisfactory one), so one might (reasonably) object that this answer isn't actually a "construction". But any method is going to have to show somehow that $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible, and doing this naively is labor-intensive, as here are $588 + 112 + 24 + 7 = 631$ irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $1 leq d leq 4$. If one has a faster way of generating irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $8$ that we can then factor over $Bbb F_2, Bbb F_3$ (which is much faster to do manually, see below), one might be able to optimize considerably here.



Like Servaes' approach, the method here uses Dedekind's Theorem to show that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains certain cycle types. In particular, we'll use that a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ that contains an $(n - 1)$-cycle and a transposition is $S_n$ itself.



Take



$$f(x) := x^8 + 4 x^7 + 3 x^6 + 3 x^5 + 3 x^4 + 5 x^3 + x^2 + 4 x + 5 .$$



Factoring $operatorname{red}_p f$ over $Bbb F_p$ for the below $p$ gives:





  • $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible over $f$, so $f$ satisfies the given hypothesis and by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ acts transitively on the roots of $f$.


  • $operatorname{red}_{2} f = p_3 hat p_3 p_2$ for irreducible (and distinct) polynomials of respective degrees $3, 3, 2$. Again by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a product $sigma$ of cycle type $(3, 3, 2)$, so $sigma^3 in operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ is a transposition.


  • $operatorname{red}_{3} f = q_7 q_1$ for irreducible polynomials $q_d$, so Dedekind's Theorem this time gives us that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a $7$-cycle.


After checking the irreducibility of $operatorname{red}_7 f$ as discussed above, the most intensive verification is checking that $q_7$ is irreducible over $Bbb F_3$, but there are only $8 + 3 + 3 = 14$ irreducible polynomials of degree $1 leq d leq 3$ irreducible over $Bbb F_3$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
    });
    });
    }, "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "69"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














     

    draft saved


    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3005051%2fconstructing-a-polynomial-given-the-galois-group-of-its-splitting-field%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    3
    down vote













    This is not a complete answer, just a start as you indicate that you don't even know where to begin.



    Let $finBbb{Z}[x]$ monic. If its image $f_p$ in $Bbb{F}_p[x]$ is separable and factors as $f_p=prod_{i=1}^kg_k$, then $operatorname{Gal}(f)$ contains an element of cycle type $(deg g_1,ldots,deg g_k)$. So it makes sense to start from an irreducibe polynomial $hinBbb{F}_7[x]$ as then any lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ already has an element of order $8$ in $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$. An easy first candidate is
    $$h_7=x^8+x+3inBbb{F}_7[x].$$
    To make sure we also have a transpotion in $operatorname{Gal}(f)$, we choose a lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ that factors into one quadratic and six linear factors mod $2$. A bit of fiddling around yields, for example
    $$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x^7+x^6+x+1)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
    so that
    $$h_2=x^8+x^7+x^6=x^6(x^2+x+1)inBbb{F}_2[x].$$
    which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition. This doesn't quite give you that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})cong S_8$, but gets you on the right track.



    EDIT: As pointed out in the comments below $h_2$ is not separable, so this choice of $tilde{h}$ doesn't quite work. I have no doubt the argument can be salvaged, but the result will likely not be as pretty. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.



    UPDATE: One way to salvage the argument is to take a larger prime $p$, so that a lift $tilde{h}$ splits into six distinct linear factors and one irreducible quadratic factor. As $degtilde{h}=8$ this requires $pgeq6$, hence $p=11$ is the smallest prime that might work. And indeed, surprisingly little fiddling around shows that the lift
    $$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x+8)big((x+3)(x+4)+6(x+1)(x+2)(x+5)(x+10)big)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
    satisfies
    $$h_p=(x+1)(x+2)(x+3)(x+5)(x+8)(x+10)(x^2+4x+5)inBbb{F}_p[x],$$
    which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • How did you find $h_7$?
      – Ray Bern
      yesterday










    • An educated guess; there is quite often a $cinBbb{F}_p$ such that $x^n+x+c$ is irreducible.
      – Servaes
      yesterday












    • A good technique. But I'm afraid I need to complain about $h_2(x)$ not being separable in $Bbb{F}_2[x]$.
      – Jyrki Lahtonen
      yesterday










    • @Jyrki You're absolutely right. It seems the argument needs a bigger prime, the computations will likely not be so clean. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.
      – Servaes
      yesterday












    • Many ways to use this idea I think. One way is to specify the factors modulo any finite collection of primes, then do a Chinese remainder theorem combination of the products. And only then lift from $Bbb{Z}_{p_1p_2cdots p_k}$ to $Bbb{Z}$. As you pointed out the end result may not look nice :-)
      – Jyrki Lahtonen
      yesterday















    up vote
    3
    down vote













    This is not a complete answer, just a start as you indicate that you don't even know where to begin.



    Let $finBbb{Z}[x]$ monic. If its image $f_p$ in $Bbb{F}_p[x]$ is separable and factors as $f_p=prod_{i=1}^kg_k$, then $operatorname{Gal}(f)$ contains an element of cycle type $(deg g_1,ldots,deg g_k)$. So it makes sense to start from an irreducibe polynomial $hinBbb{F}_7[x]$ as then any lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ already has an element of order $8$ in $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$. An easy first candidate is
    $$h_7=x^8+x+3inBbb{F}_7[x].$$
    To make sure we also have a transpotion in $operatorname{Gal}(f)$, we choose a lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ that factors into one quadratic and six linear factors mod $2$. A bit of fiddling around yields, for example
    $$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x^7+x^6+x+1)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
    so that
    $$h_2=x^8+x^7+x^6=x^6(x^2+x+1)inBbb{F}_2[x].$$
    which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition. This doesn't quite give you that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})cong S_8$, but gets you on the right track.



    EDIT: As pointed out in the comments below $h_2$ is not separable, so this choice of $tilde{h}$ doesn't quite work. I have no doubt the argument can be salvaged, but the result will likely not be as pretty. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.



    UPDATE: One way to salvage the argument is to take a larger prime $p$, so that a lift $tilde{h}$ splits into six distinct linear factors and one irreducible quadratic factor. As $degtilde{h}=8$ this requires $pgeq6$, hence $p=11$ is the smallest prime that might work. And indeed, surprisingly little fiddling around shows that the lift
    $$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x+8)big((x+3)(x+4)+6(x+1)(x+2)(x+5)(x+10)big)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
    satisfies
    $$h_p=(x+1)(x+2)(x+3)(x+5)(x+8)(x+10)(x^2+4x+5)inBbb{F}_p[x],$$
    which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • How did you find $h_7$?
      – Ray Bern
      yesterday










    • An educated guess; there is quite often a $cinBbb{F}_p$ such that $x^n+x+c$ is irreducible.
      – Servaes
      yesterday












    • A good technique. But I'm afraid I need to complain about $h_2(x)$ not being separable in $Bbb{F}_2[x]$.
      – Jyrki Lahtonen
      yesterday










    • @Jyrki You're absolutely right. It seems the argument needs a bigger prime, the computations will likely not be so clean. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.
      – Servaes
      yesterday












    • Many ways to use this idea I think. One way is to specify the factors modulo any finite collection of primes, then do a Chinese remainder theorem combination of the products. And only then lift from $Bbb{Z}_{p_1p_2cdots p_k}$ to $Bbb{Z}$. As you pointed out the end result may not look nice :-)
      – Jyrki Lahtonen
      yesterday













    up vote
    3
    down vote










    up vote
    3
    down vote









    This is not a complete answer, just a start as you indicate that you don't even know where to begin.



    Let $finBbb{Z}[x]$ monic. If its image $f_p$ in $Bbb{F}_p[x]$ is separable and factors as $f_p=prod_{i=1}^kg_k$, then $operatorname{Gal}(f)$ contains an element of cycle type $(deg g_1,ldots,deg g_k)$. So it makes sense to start from an irreducibe polynomial $hinBbb{F}_7[x]$ as then any lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ already has an element of order $8$ in $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$. An easy first candidate is
    $$h_7=x^8+x+3inBbb{F}_7[x].$$
    To make sure we also have a transpotion in $operatorname{Gal}(f)$, we choose a lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ that factors into one quadratic and six linear factors mod $2$. A bit of fiddling around yields, for example
    $$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x^7+x^6+x+1)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
    so that
    $$h_2=x^8+x^7+x^6=x^6(x^2+x+1)inBbb{F}_2[x].$$
    which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition. This doesn't quite give you that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})cong S_8$, but gets you on the right track.



    EDIT: As pointed out in the comments below $h_2$ is not separable, so this choice of $tilde{h}$ doesn't quite work. I have no doubt the argument can be salvaged, but the result will likely not be as pretty. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.



    UPDATE: One way to salvage the argument is to take a larger prime $p$, so that a lift $tilde{h}$ splits into six distinct linear factors and one irreducible quadratic factor. As $degtilde{h}=8$ this requires $pgeq6$, hence $p=11$ is the smallest prime that might work. And indeed, surprisingly little fiddling around shows that the lift
    $$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x+8)big((x+3)(x+4)+6(x+1)(x+2)(x+5)(x+10)big)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
    satisfies
    $$h_p=(x+1)(x+2)(x+3)(x+5)(x+8)(x+10)(x^2+4x+5)inBbb{F}_p[x],$$
    which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition.






    share|cite|improve this answer














    This is not a complete answer, just a start as you indicate that you don't even know where to begin.



    Let $finBbb{Z}[x]$ monic. If its image $f_p$ in $Bbb{F}_p[x]$ is separable and factors as $f_p=prod_{i=1}^kg_k$, then $operatorname{Gal}(f)$ contains an element of cycle type $(deg g_1,ldots,deg g_k)$. So it makes sense to start from an irreducibe polynomial $hinBbb{F}_7[x]$ as then any lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ already has an element of order $8$ in $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$. An easy first candidate is
    $$h_7=x^8+x+3inBbb{F}_7[x].$$
    To make sure we also have a transpotion in $operatorname{Gal}(f)$, we choose a lift $tilde{h}inBbb{Z}[x]$ that factors into one quadratic and six linear factors mod $2$. A bit of fiddling around yields, for example
    $$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x^7+x^6+x+1)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
    so that
    $$h_2=x^8+x^7+x^6=x^6(x^2+x+1)inBbb{F}_2[x].$$
    which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition. This doesn't quite give you that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})cong S_8$, but gets you on the right track.



    EDIT: As pointed out in the comments below $h_2$ is not separable, so this choice of $tilde{h}$ doesn't quite work. I have no doubt the argument can be salvaged, but the result will likely not be as pretty. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.



    UPDATE: One way to salvage the argument is to take a larger prime $p$, so that a lift $tilde{h}$ splits into six distinct linear factors and one irreducible quadratic factor. As $degtilde{h}=8$ this requires $pgeq6$, hence $p=11$ is the smallest prime that might work. And indeed, surprisingly little fiddling around shows that the lift
    $$tilde{h}=x^8+x+3+7(x+8)big((x+3)(x+4)+6(x+1)(x+2)(x+5)(x+10)big)inBbb{Z}[x],$$
    satisfies
    $$h_p=(x+1)(x+2)(x+3)(x+5)(x+8)(x+10)(x^2+4x+5)inBbb{F}_p[x],$$
    which shows that $operatorname{Gal}(tilde{h})$ contains a transposition.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited 19 hours ago

























    answered yesterday









    Servaes

    20.6k33789




    20.6k33789












    • How did you find $h_7$?
      – Ray Bern
      yesterday










    • An educated guess; there is quite often a $cinBbb{F}_p$ such that $x^n+x+c$ is irreducible.
      – Servaes
      yesterday












    • A good technique. But I'm afraid I need to complain about $h_2(x)$ not being separable in $Bbb{F}_2[x]$.
      – Jyrki Lahtonen
      yesterday










    • @Jyrki You're absolutely right. It seems the argument needs a bigger prime, the computations will likely not be so clean. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.
      – Servaes
      yesterday












    • Many ways to use this idea I think. One way is to specify the factors modulo any finite collection of primes, then do a Chinese remainder theorem combination of the products. And only then lift from $Bbb{Z}_{p_1p_2cdots p_k}$ to $Bbb{Z}$. As you pointed out the end result may not look nice :-)
      – Jyrki Lahtonen
      yesterday


















    • How did you find $h_7$?
      – Ray Bern
      yesterday










    • An educated guess; there is quite often a $cinBbb{F}_p$ such that $x^n+x+c$ is irreducible.
      – Servaes
      yesterday












    • A good technique. But I'm afraid I need to complain about $h_2(x)$ not being separable in $Bbb{F}_2[x]$.
      – Jyrki Lahtonen
      yesterday










    • @Jyrki You're absolutely right. It seems the argument needs a bigger prime, the computations will likely not be so clean. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.
      – Servaes
      yesterday












    • Many ways to use this idea I think. One way is to specify the factors modulo any finite collection of primes, then do a Chinese remainder theorem combination of the products. And only then lift from $Bbb{Z}_{p_1p_2cdots p_k}$ to $Bbb{Z}$. As you pointed out the end result may not look nice :-)
      – Jyrki Lahtonen
      yesterday
















    How did you find $h_7$?
    – Ray Bern
    yesterday




    How did you find $h_7$?
    – Ray Bern
    yesterday












    An educated guess; there is quite often a $cinBbb{F}_p$ such that $x^n+x+c$ is irreducible.
    – Servaes
    yesterday






    An educated guess; there is quite often a $cinBbb{F}_p$ such that $x^n+x+c$ is irreducible.
    – Servaes
    yesterday














    A good technique. But I'm afraid I need to complain about $h_2(x)$ not being separable in $Bbb{F}_2[x]$.
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    yesterday




    A good technique. But I'm afraid I need to complain about $h_2(x)$ not being separable in $Bbb{F}_2[x]$.
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    yesterday












    @Jyrki You're absolutely right. It seems the argument needs a bigger prime, the computations will likely not be so clean. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.
    – Servaes
    yesterday






    @Jyrki You're absolutely right. It seems the argument needs a bigger prime, the computations will likely not be so clean. I'll give it some thought tomorrow.
    – Servaes
    yesterday














    Many ways to use this idea I think. One way is to specify the factors modulo any finite collection of primes, then do a Chinese remainder theorem combination of the products. And only then lift from $Bbb{Z}_{p_1p_2cdots p_k}$ to $Bbb{Z}$. As you pointed out the end result may not look nice :-)
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    yesterday




    Many ways to use this idea I think. One way is to specify the factors modulo any finite collection of primes, then do a Chinese remainder theorem combination of the products. And only then lift from $Bbb{Z}_{p_1p_2cdots p_k}$ to $Bbb{Z}$. As you pointed out the end result may not look nice :-)
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    yesterday










    up vote
    0
    down vote













    This example was produced in the first place by randomly generating polynomials and checking the factorizations with computer help (it only took a modest number of polynomials before finding a satisfactory one), so one might (reasonably) object that this answer isn't actually a "construction". But any method is going to have to show somehow that $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible, and doing this naively is labor-intensive, as here are $588 + 112 + 24 + 7 = 631$ irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $1 leq d leq 4$. If one has a faster way of generating irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $8$ that we can then factor over $Bbb F_2, Bbb F_3$ (which is much faster to do manually, see below), one might be able to optimize considerably here.



    Like Servaes' approach, the method here uses Dedekind's Theorem to show that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains certain cycle types. In particular, we'll use that a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ that contains an $(n - 1)$-cycle and a transposition is $S_n$ itself.



    Take



    $$f(x) := x^8 + 4 x^7 + 3 x^6 + 3 x^5 + 3 x^4 + 5 x^3 + x^2 + 4 x + 5 .$$



    Factoring $operatorname{red}_p f$ over $Bbb F_p$ for the below $p$ gives:





    • $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible over $f$, so $f$ satisfies the given hypothesis and by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ acts transitively on the roots of $f$.


    • $operatorname{red}_{2} f = p_3 hat p_3 p_2$ for irreducible (and distinct) polynomials of respective degrees $3, 3, 2$. Again by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a product $sigma$ of cycle type $(3, 3, 2)$, so $sigma^3 in operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ is a transposition.


    • $operatorname{red}_{3} f = q_7 q_1$ for irreducible polynomials $q_d$, so Dedekind's Theorem this time gives us that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a $7$-cycle.


    After checking the irreducibility of $operatorname{red}_7 f$ as discussed above, the most intensive verification is checking that $q_7$ is irreducible over $Bbb F_3$, but there are only $8 + 3 + 3 = 14$ irreducible polynomials of degree $1 leq d leq 3$ irreducible over $Bbb F_3$.






    share|cite|improve this answer

























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      This example was produced in the first place by randomly generating polynomials and checking the factorizations with computer help (it only took a modest number of polynomials before finding a satisfactory one), so one might (reasonably) object that this answer isn't actually a "construction". But any method is going to have to show somehow that $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible, and doing this naively is labor-intensive, as here are $588 + 112 + 24 + 7 = 631$ irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $1 leq d leq 4$. If one has a faster way of generating irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $8$ that we can then factor over $Bbb F_2, Bbb F_3$ (which is much faster to do manually, see below), one might be able to optimize considerably here.



      Like Servaes' approach, the method here uses Dedekind's Theorem to show that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains certain cycle types. In particular, we'll use that a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ that contains an $(n - 1)$-cycle and a transposition is $S_n$ itself.



      Take



      $$f(x) := x^8 + 4 x^7 + 3 x^6 + 3 x^5 + 3 x^4 + 5 x^3 + x^2 + 4 x + 5 .$$



      Factoring $operatorname{red}_p f$ over $Bbb F_p$ for the below $p$ gives:





      • $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible over $f$, so $f$ satisfies the given hypothesis and by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ acts transitively on the roots of $f$.


      • $operatorname{red}_{2} f = p_3 hat p_3 p_2$ for irreducible (and distinct) polynomials of respective degrees $3, 3, 2$. Again by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a product $sigma$ of cycle type $(3, 3, 2)$, so $sigma^3 in operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ is a transposition.


      • $operatorname{red}_{3} f = q_7 q_1$ for irreducible polynomials $q_d$, so Dedekind's Theorem this time gives us that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a $7$-cycle.


      After checking the irreducibility of $operatorname{red}_7 f$ as discussed above, the most intensive verification is checking that $q_7$ is irreducible over $Bbb F_3$, but there are only $8 + 3 + 3 = 14$ irreducible polynomials of degree $1 leq d leq 3$ irreducible over $Bbb F_3$.






      share|cite|improve this answer























        up vote
        0
        down vote










        up vote
        0
        down vote









        This example was produced in the first place by randomly generating polynomials and checking the factorizations with computer help (it only took a modest number of polynomials before finding a satisfactory one), so one might (reasonably) object that this answer isn't actually a "construction". But any method is going to have to show somehow that $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible, and doing this naively is labor-intensive, as here are $588 + 112 + 24 + 7 = 631$ irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $1 leq d leq 4$. If one has a faster way of generating irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $8$ that we can then factor over $Bbb F_2, Bbb F_3$ (which is much faster to do manually, see below), one might be able to optimize considerably here.



        Like Servaes' approach, the method here uses Dedekind's Theorem to show that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains certain cycle types. In particular, we'll use that a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ that contains an $(n - 1)$-cycle and a transposition is $S_n$ itself.



        Take



        $$f(x) := x^8 + 4 x^7 + 3 x^6 + 3 x^5 + 3 x^4 + 5 x^3 + x^2 + 4 x + 5 .$$



        Factoring $operatorname{red}_p f$ over $Bbb F_p$ for the below $p$ gives:





        • $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible over $f$, so $f$ satisfies the given hypothesis and by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ acts transitively on the roots of $f$.


        • $operatorname{red}_{2} f = p_3 hat p_3 p_2$ for irreducible (and distinct) polynomials of respective degrees $3, 3, 2$. Again by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a product $sigma$ of cycle type $(3, 3, 2)$, so $sigma^3 in operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ is a transposition.


        • $operatorname{red}_{3} f = q_7 q_1$ for irreducible polynomials $q_d$, so Dedekind's Theorem this time gives us that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a $7$-cycle.


        After checking the irreducibility of $operatorname{red}_7 f$ as discussed above, the most intensive verification is checking that $q_7$ is irreducible over $Bbb F_3$, but there are only $8 + 3 + 3 = 14$ irreducible polynomials of degree $1 leq d leq 3$ irreducible over $Bbb F_3$.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        This example was produced in the first place by randomly generating polynomials and checking the factorizations with computer help (it only took a modest number of polynomials before finding a satisfactory one), so one might (reasonably) object that this answer isn't actually a "construction". But any method is going to have to show somehow that $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible, and doing this naively is labor-intensive, as here are $588 + 112 + 24 + 7 = 631$ irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $1 leq d leq 4$. If one has a faster way of generating irreducible polynomials over $Bbb F_7$ of degree $8$ that we can then factor over $Bbb F_2, Bbb F_3$ (which is much faster to do manually, see below), one might be able to optimize considerably here.



        Like Servaes' approach, the method here uses Dedekind's Theorem to show that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains certain cycle types. In particular, we'll use that a transitive subgroup of $S_n$ that contains an $(n - 1)$-cycle and a transposition is $S_n$ itself.



        Take



        $$f(x) := x^8 + 4 x^7 + 3 x^6 + 3 x^5 + 3 x^4 + 5 x^3 + x^2 + 4 x + 5 .$$



        Factoring $operatorname{red}_p f$ over $Bbb F_p$ for the below $p$ gives:





        • $operatorname{red}_7 f$ is irreducible over $f$, so $f$ satisfies the given hypothesis and by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ acts transitively on the roots of $f$.


        • $operatorname{red}_{2} f = p_3 hat p_3 p_2$ for irreducible (and distinct) polynomials of respective degrees $3, 3, 2$. Again by Dedekind's Theorem $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a product $sigma$ of cycle type $(3, 3, 2)$, so $sigma^3 in operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ is a transposition.


        • $operatorname{red}_{3} f = q_7 q_1$ for irreducible polynomials $q_d$, so Dedekind's Theorem this time gives us that $operatorname{Gal}(F / Bbb Q)$ contains a $7$-cycle.


        After checking the irreducibility of $operatorname{red}_7 f$ as discussed above, the most intensive verification is checking that $q_7$ is irreducible over $Bbb F_3$, but there are only $8 + 3 + 3 = 14$ irreducible polynomials of degree $1 leq d leq 3$ irreducible over $Bbb F_3$.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered 17 hours ago









        Travis

        58.7k765142




        58.7k765142






























             

            draft saved


            draft discarded



















































             


            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3005051%2fconstructing-a-polynomial-given-the-galois-group-of-its-splitting-field%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Wiesbaden

            Marschland

            Dieringhausen