Conway Notation for Large Countable Ordinals











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I have not previously seen anything online that dives deeply into On:




In Conway's notation On denotes the ordinal numbers (and No denotes the set of all surreal Numbers). Basically the elements of On are just von Neumann ordinals. -Source




I would appreciate feedback on the following attempt to write large countable ordinals (& the functions that generate them) in Conway notation (my primary source of information in creating these constructions was Large Countable Ordinals):



epsilon-nought
$$varepsilon_{0}={omega,omega^omega,omega^{omega^omega},...|}$$
veblen function
$$phi={omega,varepsilon_0,zeta_{alpha},...|}$$
veblen hierarchy
$$phi_{gamma}(alpha)={phi_{0}(alpha)=omega^{alpha}, phi_{1}(alpha)=varepsilon_{alpha}, phi_{2}(alpha)=zeta_{alpha}...|}$$
feferman-schutte ordinal
$$Gamma_0=phi_{Gamma_0}(0)={phi_0(0),phi_{phi_0(0)}(0),phi_{phi_{phi_0(0)}(0)}(0),...|}$$
small veblen ordinal
$$SVO={phi_1(0), phi_{1,0}(0), phi_{1,0,0}(0),...|}$$
large veblen ordinal
$$LVO=psi(Omega^{Omega^Omega})={[???]...|}$$
bachmann-howard ordinal
$$BHO=psi(varepsilon_{Omega+1})={psi(Omega),psi(Omega^Omega),psi(Omega^{Omega^Omega})|}$$



Additionally, any online resources related to On would be greatly appreciated.










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  • 2




    In all those cases, the Conway's bracket notation could be replaced by the usual notion of supremum so I don't think there's much to gain here from that.
    – nombre
    Nov 21 at 11:38










  • @nombre I was hoping you might make an appearance! I am a) trying to confirm that, as written, everything (LVO excluded) is correct b) seek sources about On (surordinals?). I would like to eventually be able to perform calculations such as ${varepsilon_0 | varepsilon_0}$, ${SVO|LVO}$, ${Gamma_0|Gamma_1}$, etc.
    – meowzz
    Nov 21 at 21:43










  • @JDH I am also curious about your thoughts on the matter!
    – meowzz
    Nov 21 at 21:47















up vote
1
down vote

favorite












I have not previously seen anything online that dives deeply into On:




In Conway's notation On denotes the ordinal numbers (and No denotes the set of all surreal Numbers). Basically the elements of On are just von Neumann ordinals. -Source




I would appreciate feedback on the following attempt to write large countable ordinals (& the functions that generate them) in Conway notation (my primary source of information in creating these constructions was Large Countable Ordinals):



epsilon-nought
$$varepsilon_{0}={omega,omega^omega,omega^{omega^omega},...|}$$
veblen function
$$phi={omega,varepsilon_0,zeta_{alpha},...|}$$
veblen hierarchy
$$phi_{gamma}(alpha)={phi_{0}(alpha)=omega^{alpha}, phi_{1}(alpha)=varepsilon_{alpha}, phi_{2}(alpha)=zeta_{alpha}...|}$$
feferman-schutte ordinal
$$Gamma_0=phi_{Gamma_0}(0)={phi_0(0),phi_{phi_0(0)}(0),phi_{phi_{phi_0(0)}(0)}(0),...|}$$
small veblen ordinal
$$SVO={phi_1(0), phi_{1,0}(0), phi_{1,0,0}(0),...|}$$
large veblen ordinal
$$LVO=psi(Omega^{Omega^Omega})={[???]...|}$$
bachmann-howard ordinal
$$BHO=psi(varepsilon_{Omega+1})={psi(Omega),psi(Omega^Omega),psi(Omega^{Omega^Omega})|}$$



Additionally, any online resources related to On would be greatly appreciated.










share|cite|improve this question


















  • 2




    In all those cases, the Conway's bracket notation could be replaced by the usual notion of supremum so I don't think there's much to gain here from that.
    – nombre
    Nov 21 at 11:38










  • @nombre I was hoping you might make an appearance! I am a) trying to confirm that, as written, everything (LVO excluded) is correct b) seek sources about On (surordinals?). I would like to eventually be able to perform calculations such as ${varepsilon_0 | varepsilon_0}$, ${SVO|LVO}$, ${Gamma_0|Gamma_1}$, etc.
    – meowzz
    Nov 21 at 21:43










  • @JDH I am also curious about your thoughts on the matter!
    – meowzz
    Nov 21 at 21:47













up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











I have not previously seen anything online that dives deeply into On:




In Conway's notation On denotes the ordinal numbers (and No denotes the set of all surreal Numbers). Basically the elements of On are just von Neumann ordinals. -Source




I would appreciate feedback on the following attempt to write large countable ordinals (& the functions that generate them) in Conway notation (my primary source of information in creating these constructions was Large Countable Ordinals):



epsilon-nought
$$varepsilon_{0}={omega,omega^omega,omega^{omega^omega},...|}$$
veblen function
$$phi={omega,varepsilon_0,zeta_{alpha},...|}$$
veblen hierarchy
$$phi_{gamma}(alpha)={phi_{0}(alpha)=omega^{alpha}, phi_{1}(alpha)=varepsilon_{alpha}, phi_{2}(alpha)=zeta_{alpha}...|}$$
feferman-schutte ordinal
$$Gamma_0=phi_{Gamma_0}(0)={phi_0(0),phi_{phi_0(0)}(0),phi_{phi_{phi_0(0)}(0)}(0),...|}$$
small veblen ordinal
$$SVO={phi_1(0), phi_{1,0}(0), phi_{1,0,0}(0),...|}$$
large veblen ordinal
$$LVO=psi(Omega^{Omega^Omega})={[???]...|}$$
bachmann-howard ordinal
$$BHO=psi(varepsilon_{Omega+1})={psi(Omega),psi(Omega^Omega),psi(Omega^{Omega^Omega})|}$$



Additionally, any online resources related to On would be greatly appreciated.










share|cite|improve this question













I have not previously seen anything online that dives deeply into On:




In Conway's notation On denotes the ordinal numbers (and No denotes the set of all surreal Numbers). Basically the elements of On are just von Neumann ordinals. -Source




I would appreciate feedback on the following attempt to write large countable ordinals (& the functions that generate them) in Conway notation (my primary source of information in creating these constructions was Large Countable Ordinals):



epsilon-nought
$$varepsilon_{0}={omega,omega^omega,omega^{omega^omega},...|}$$
veblen function
$$phi={omega,varepsilon_0,zeta_{alpha},...|}$$
veblen hierarchy
$$phi_{gamma}(alpha)={phi_{0}(alpha)=omega^{alpha}, phi_{1}(alpha)=varepsilon_{alpha}, phi_{2}(alpha)=zeta_{alpha}...|}$$
feferman-schutte ordinal
$$Gamma_0=phi_{Gamma_0}(0)={phi_0(0),phi_{phi_0(0)}(0),phi_{phi_{phi_0(0)}(0)}(0),...|}$$
small veblen ordinal
$$SVO={phi_1(0), phi_{1,0}(0), phi_{1,0,0}(0),...|}$$
large veblen ordinal
$$LVO=psi(Omega^{Omega^Omega})={[???]...|}$$
bachmann-howard ordinal
$$BHO=psi(varepsilon_{Omega+1})={psi(Omega),psi(Omega^Omega),psi(Omega^{Omega^Omega})|}$$



Additionally, any online resources related to On would be greatly appreciated.







ordinals online-resources surreal-numbers ordinal-analysis






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asked Nov 20 at 19:37









meowzz

1389




1389








  • 2




    In all those cases, the Conway's bracket notation could be replaced by the usual notion of supremum so I don't think there's much to gain here from that.
    – nombre
    Nov 21 at 11:38










  • @nombre I was hoping you might make an appearance! I am a) trying to confirm that, as written, everything (LVO excluded) is correct b) seek sources about On (surordinals?). I would like to eventually be able to perform calculations such as ${varepsilon_0 | varepsilon_0}$, ${SVO|LVO}$, ${Gamma_0|Gamma_1}$, etc.
    – meowzz
    Nov 21 at 21:43










  • @JDH I am also curious about your thoughts on the matter!
    – meowzz
    Nov 21 at 21:47














  • 2




    In all those cases, the Conway's bracket notation could be replaced by the usual notion of supremum so I don't think there's much to gain here from that.
    – nombre
    Nov 21 at 11:38










  • @nombre I was hoping you might make an appearance! I am a) trying to confirm that, as written, everything (LVO excluded) is correct b) seek sources about On (surordinals?). I would like to eventually be able to perform calculations such as ${varepsilon_0 | varepsilon_0}$, ${SVO|LVO}$, ${Gamma_0|Gamma_1}$, etc.
    – meowzz
    Nov 21 at 21:43










  • @JDH I am also curious about your thoughts on the matter!
    – meowzz
    Nov 21 at 21:47








2




2




In all those cases, the Conway's bracket notation could be replaced by the usual notion of supremum so I don't think there's much to gain here from that.
– nombre
Nov 21 at 11:38




In all those cases, the Conway's bracket notation could be replaced by the usual notion of supremum so I don't think there's much to gain here from that.
– nombre
Nov 21 at 11:38












@nombre I was hoping you might make an appearance! I am a) trying to confirm that, as written, everything (LVO excluded) is correct b) seek sources about On (surordinals?). I would like to eventually be able to perform calculations such as ${varepsilon_0 | varepsilon_0}$, ${SVO|LVO}$, ${Gamma_0|Gamma_1}$, etc.
– meowzz
Nov 21 at 21:43




@nombre I was hoping you might make an appearance! I am a) trying to confirm that, as written, everything (LVO excluded) is correct b) seek sources about On (surordinals?). I would like to eventually be able to perform calculations such as ${varepsilon_0 | varepsilon_0}$, ${SVO|LVO}$, ${Gamma_0|Gamma_1}$, etc.
– meowzz
Nov 21 at 21:43












@JDH I am also curious about your thoughts on the matter!
– meowzz
Nov 21 at 21:47




@JDH I am also curious about your thoughts on the matter!
– meowzz
Nov 21 at 21:47










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2
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I have to say I know as little about large countable ordinals as I do about games. I actually didn't know the ordinal $Gamma_0$ was thought of as the first impredicative ordinal, had a name and so on.



Regarding your definitions, the function $phi_{gamma}(alpha)$ should also be greater than every ordinal $phi_{eta}^{circ n}(phi_{gamma}(beta)+1)$ for $eta < gamma$, $n in mathbb{N}$ and $beta<alpha$. I am not sure about what you mean by Vleben function, and I don't know about SVO, LVO, BHO.



Perhaps something you might find interesting is a phenomenon noticed by Conway and expended upon by Gonshor: the functions $phi_{gamma}$ can be extended to $mathbf{No}$ in a natural way.



For $x={L | R} in mathbf{No}$, you must know about $omega^x=phi_0(x)={0,mathbb{N} phi_0(L) | 2^{-mathbb{N}} phi_0(R)}$.
Then the class of numbers $e$ such that $omega^e=e$ is parametrized by $varepsilon_x=phi_1(x):={phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(0),phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(L)+1) | phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(R)-1)}$,
and one can keep going on. At every stage $0<gamma$, the function $phi_{gamma}$ parametrizes the class of numbers $e$ with $forall eta < gamma,phi_{eta}(e)=e$.



As for sources on $mathbf{On}$, since this is just the class of ordinals, you can just look into this. I don't know that new insight on ordinal numbers has been gained by seeing them as surreal numbers, at least not in a significant way.






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    down vote













    I have to say I know as little about large countable ordinals as I do about games. I actually didn't know the ordinal $Gamma_0$ was thought of as the first impredicative ordinal, had a name and so on.



    Regarding your definitions, the function $phi_{gamma}(alpha)$ should also be greater than every ordinal $phi_{eta}^{circ n}(phi_{gamma}(beta)+1)$ for $eta < gamma$, $n in mathbb{N}$ and $beta<alpha$. I am not sure about what you mean by Vleben function, and I don't know about SVO, LVO, BHO.



    Perhaps something you might find interesting is a phenomenon noticed by Conway and expended upon by Gonshor: the functions $phi_{gamma}$ can be extended to $mathbf{No}$ in a natural way.



    For $x={L | R} in mathbf{No}$, you must know about $omega^x=phi_0(x)={0,mathbb{N} phi_0(L) | 2^{-mathbb{N}} phi_0(R)}$.
    Then the class of numbers $e$ such that $omega^e=e$ is parametrized by $varepsilon_x=phi_1(x):={phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(0),phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(L)+1) | phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(R)-1)}$,
    and one can keep going on. At every stage $0<gamma$, the function $phi_{gamma}$ parametrizes the class of numbers $e$ with $forall eta < gamma,phi_{eta}(e)=e$.



    As for sources on $mathbf{On}$, since this is just the class of ordinals, you can just look into this. I don't know that new insight on ordinal numbers has been gained by seeing them as surreal numbers, at least not in a significant way.






    share|cite|improve this answer

























      up vote
      2
      down vote













      I have to say I know as little about large countable ordinals as I do about games. I actually didn't know the ordinal $Gamma_0$ was thought of as the first impredicative ordinal, had a name and so on.



      Regarding your definitions, the function $phi_{gamma}(alpha)$ should also be greater than every ordinal $phi_{eta}^{circ n}(phi_{gamma}(beta)+1)$ for $eta < gamma$, $n in mathbb{N}$ and $beta<alpha$. I am not sure about what you mean by Vleben function, and I don't know about SVO, LVO, BHO.



      Perhaps something you might find interesting is a phenomenon noticed by Conway and expended upon by Gonshor: the functions $phi_{gamma}$ can be extended to $mathbf{No}$ in a natural way.



      For $x={L | R} in mathbf{No}$, you must know about $omega^x=phi_0(x)={0,mathbb{N} phi_0(L) | 2^{-mathbb{N}} phi_0(R)}$.
      Then the class of numbers $e$ such that $omega^e=e$ is parametrized by $varepsilon_x=phi_1(x):={phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(0),phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(L)+1) | phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(R)-1)}$,
      and one can keep going on. At every stage $0<gamma$, the function $phi_{gamma}$ parametrizes the class of numbers $e$ with $forall eta < gamma,phi_{eta}(e)=e$.



      As for sources on $mathbf{On}$, since this is just the class of ordinals, you can just look into this. I don't know that new insight on ordinal numbers has been gained by seeing them as surreal numbers, at least not in a significant way.






      share|cite|improve this answer























        up vote
        2
        down vote










        up vote
        2
        down vote









        I have to say I know as little about large countable ordinals as I do about games. I actually didn't know the ordinal $Gamma_0$ was thought of as the first impredicative ordinal, had a name and so on.



        Regarding your definitions, the function $phi_{gamma}(alpha)$ should also be greater than every ordinal $phi_{eta}^{circ n}(phi_{gamma}(beta)+1)$ for $eta < gamma$, $n in mathbb{N}$ and $beta<alpha$. I am not sure about what you mean by Vleben function, and I don't know about SVO, LVO, BHO.



        Perhaps something you might find interesting is a phenomenon noticed by Conway and expended upon by Gonshor: the functions $phi_{gamma}$ can be extended to $mathbf{No}$ in a natural way.



        For $x={L | R} in mathbf{No}$, you must know about $omega^x=phi_0(x)={0,mathbb{N} phi_0(L) | 2^{-mathbb{N}} phi_0(R)}$.
        Then the class of numbers $e$ such that $omega^e=e$ is parametrized by $varepsilon_x=phi_1(x):={phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(0),phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(L)+1) | phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(R)-1)}$,
        and one can keep going on. At every stage $0<gamma$, the function $phi_{gamma}$ parametrizes the class of numbers $e$ with $forall eta < gamma,phi_{eta}(e)=e$.



        As for sources on $mathbf{On}$, since this is just the class of ordinals, you can just look into this. I don't know that new insight on ordinal numbers has been gained by seeing them as surreal numbers, at least not in a significant way.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        I have to say I know as little about large countable ordinals as I do about games. I actually didn't know the ordinal $Gamma_0$ was thought of as the first impredicative ordinal, had a name and so on.



        Regarding your definitions, the function $phi_{gamma}(alpha)$ should also be greater than every ordinal $phi_{eta}^{circ n}(phi_{gamma}(beta)+1)$ for $eta < gamma$, $n in mathbb{N}$ and $beta<alpha$. I am not sure about what you mean by Vleben function, and I don't know about SVO, LVO, BHO.



        Perhaps something you might find interesting is a phenomenon noticed by Conway and expended upon by Gonshor: the functions $phi_{gamma}$ can be extended to $mathbf{No}$ in a natural way.



        For $x={L | R} in mathbf{No}$, you must know about $omega^x=phi_0(x)={0,mathbb{N} phi_0(L) | 2^{-mathbb{N}} phi_0(R)}$.
        Then the class of numbers $e$ such that $omega^e=e$ is parametrized by $varepsilon_x=phi_1(x):={phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(0),phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(L)+1) | phi_0^{circ mathbb{N}}(phi_1(R)-1)}$,
        and one can keep going on. At every stage $0<gamma$, the function $phi_{gamma}$ parametrizes the class of numbers $e$ with $forall eta < gamma,phi_{eta}(e)=e$.



        As for sources on $mathbf{On}$, since this is just the class of ordinals, you can just look into this. I don't know that new insight on ordinal numbers has been gained by seeing them as surreal numbers, at least not in a significant way.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Nov 22 at 9:18









        nombre

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