Proving the diagonalization of $U subset mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$ that is an universal set for all...
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
Let $U subset mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$, and let $U_n = { x mid (n, x) in U }$. Let's call $U$ universal for some class $mathcal{S}$ of subsets of $mathbb{N}$ if $S in mathcal{S} iff exists n : S = U_n$. In other words, the set of "cuts" of $U$ contains all the sets in $mathcal{S}$ and nothing more.
Now, let $U$ be universal for the class of all enumerable subsets of $mathbb{N}$. Prove that $K = { x mid (x, x) in U }$ is enumerable but not decidable.
So, my proof sketch is as follows:
Enumerability is obvious, so let's focus on decidability. I know that there exists an enumerable undecidable $F subset mathbb{N}$. By definition of $U$, it must be contained in a cut with some index $k$. Now, deciding whether $(k, k) in U$ is analogous to deciding whether $k in F$. Any function $f$ for the latter is not computable, hence, the whole function $u$ that decides whether $(x, x) in U$ for arbitrary $x$ is not computable, so $K$ is undecidable.
There are a couple of things I don't like about this.
Firstly, the proposition that $f$ being undecidable implies $u$ is undecidable seems to follow from the definitions in my book (where a set is decidable if its characteristic function is computable), but, intuitively, it just feels unjustified.
Secondly, have I proved too much? A similar argument could be applied to show that any $K' = { x mid (x, f(x)) in U }$ is undecidable for arbitrary $f$ — it's sufficient for $x$ to range over the whole $U$ to capture the undecidable set that's contained in its cut. Is that correct?
proof-verification computability decidability
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
Let $U subset mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$, and let $U_n = { x mid (n, x) in U }$. Let's call $U$ universal for some class $mathcal{S}$ of subsets of $mathbb{N}$ if $S in mathcal{S} iff exists n : S = U_n$. In other words, the set of "cuts" of $U$ contains all the sets in $mathcal{S}$ and nothing more.
Now, let $U$ be universal for the class of all enumerable subsets of $mathbb{N}$. Prove that $K = { x mid (x, x) in U }$ is enumerable but not decidable.
So, my proof sketch is as follows:
Enumerability is obvious, so let's focus on decidability. I know that there exists an enumerable undecidable $F subset mathbb{N}$. By definition of $U$, it must be contained in a cut with some index $k$. Now, deciding whether $(k, k) in U$ is analogous to deciding whether $k in F$. Any function $f$ for the latter is not computable, hence, the whole function $u$ that decides whether $(x, x) in U$ for arbitrary $x$ is not computable, so $K$ is undecidable.
There are a couple of things I don't like about this.
Firstly, the proposition that $f$ being undecidable implies $u$ is undecidable seems to follow from the definitions in my book (where a set is decidable if its characteristic function is computable), but, intuitively, it just feels unjustified.
Secondly, have I proved too much? A similar argument could be applied to show that any $K' = { x mid (x, f(x)) in U }$ is undecidable for arbitrary $f$ — it's sufficient for $x$ to range over the whole $U$ to capture the undecidable set that's contained in its cut. Is that correct?
proof-verification computability decidability
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
Let $U subset mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$, and let $U_n = { x mid (n, x) in U }$. Let's call $U$ universal for some class $mathcal{S}$ of subsets of $mathbb{N}$ if $S in mathcal{S} iff exists n : S = U_n$. In other words, the set of "cuts" of $U$ contains all the sets in $mathcal{S}$ and nothing more.
Now, let $U$ be universal for the class of all enumerable subsets of $mathbb{N}$. Prove that $K = { x mid (x, x) in U }$ is enumerable but not decidable.
So, my proof sketch is as follows:
Enumerability is obvious, so let's focus on decidability. I know that there exists an enumerable undecidable $F subset mathbb{N}$. By definition of $U$, it must be contained in a cut with some index $k$. Now, deciding whether $(k, k) in U$ is analogous to deciding whether $k in F$. Any function $f$ for the latter is not computable, hence, the whole function $u$ that decides whether $(x, x) in U$ for arbitrary $x$ is not computable, so $K$ is undecidable.
There are a couple of things I don't like about this.
Firstly, the proposition that $f$ being undecidable implies $u$ is undecidable seems to follow from the definitions in my book (where a set is decidable if its characteristic function is computable), but, intuitively, it just feels unjustified.
Secondly, have I proved too much? A similar argument could be applied to show that any $K' = { x mid (x, f(x)) in U }$ is undecidable for arbitrary $f$ — it's sufficient for $x$ to range over the whole $U$ to capture the undecidable set that's contained in its cut. Is that correct?
proof-verification computability decidability
Let $U subset mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$, and let $U_n = { x mid (n, x) in U }$. Let's call $U$ universal for some class $mathcal{S}$ of subsets of $mathbb{N}$ if $S in mathcal{S} iff exists n : S = U_n$. In other words, the set of "cuts" of $U$ contains all the sets in $mathcal{S}$ and nothing more.
Now, let $U$ be universal for the class of all enumerable subsets of $mathbb{N}$. Prove that $K = { x mid (x, x) in U }$ is enumerable but not decidable.
So, my proof sketch is as follows:
Enumerability is obvious, so let's focus on decidability. I know that there exists an enumerable undecidable $F subset mathbb{N}$. By definition of $U$, it must be contained in a cut with some index $k$. Now, deciding whether $(k, k) in U$ is analogous to deciding whether $k in F$. Any function $f$ for the latter is not computable, hence, the whole function $u$ that decides whether $(x, x) in U$ for arbitrary $x$ is not computable, so $K$ is undecidable.
There are a couple of things I don't like about this.
Firstly, the proposition that $f$ being undecidable implies $u$ is undecidable seems to follow from the definitions in my book (where a set is decidable if its characteristic function is computable), but, intuitively, it just feels unjustified.
Secondly, have I proved too much? A similar argument could be applied to show that any $K' = { x mid (x, f(x)) in U }$ is undecidable for arbitrary $f$ — it's sufficient for $x$ to range over the whole $U$ to capture the undecidable set that's contained in its cut. Is that correct?
proof-verification computability decidability
proof-verification computability decidability
asked Nov 23 at 22:31
0xd34df00d
397212
397212
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
I guess I was overly obsessed with reducing this to something having to do with an enumerable undecidable set.
Indeed, the usual diagonalization approach just works: assume $K$ is decidable, then $overline{K} = { x mid (x, x) not in U }$ is also decidable, then $overline{K}$ is enumerable, then it's contained, let's say, in $U_x$ (by definition of $U$). Then the contradiction easily follows.
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
I guess I was overly obsessed with reducing this to something having to do with an enumerable undecidable set.
Indeed, the usual diagonalization approach just works: assume $K$ is decidable, then $overline{K} = { x mid (x, x) not in U }$ is also decidable, then $overline{K}$ is enumerable, then it's contained, let's say, in $U_x$ (by definition of $U$). Then the contradiction easily follows.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
I guess I was overly obsessed with reducing this to something having to do with an enumerable undecidable set.
Indeed, the usual diagonalization approach just works: assume $K$ is decidable, then $overline{K} = { x mid (x, x) not in U }$ is also decidable, then $overline{K}$ is enumerable, then it's contained, let's say, in $U_x$ (by definition of $U$). Then the contradiction easily follows.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
I guess I was overly obsessed with reducing this to something having to do with an enumerable undecidable set.
Indeed, the usual diagonalization approach just works: assume $K$ is decidable, then $overline{K} = { x mid (x, x) not in U }$ is also decidable, then $overline{K}$ is enumerable, then it's contained, let's say, in $U_x$ (by definition of $U$). Then the contradiction easily follows.
I guess I was overly obsessed with reducing this to something having to do with an enumerable undecidable set.
Indeed, the usual diagonalization approach just works: assume $K$ is decidable, then $overline{K} = { x mid (x, x) not in U }$ is also decidable, then $overline{K}$ is enumerable, then it's contained, let's say, in $U_x$ (by definition of $U$). Then the contradiction easily follows.
answered Nov 24 at 4:44
0xd34df00d
397212
397212
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3010928%2fproving-the-diagonalization-of-u-subset-mathbbn-times-mathbbn-that-is%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown