How do I find the radii for the fixed circle and rolling circle to represent an epicycle as an epitrochoid?












0












$begingroup$


Diagram showing planet and moon orbits for the epicycle and the corresponding fixed and rolling circle combination for the epitrochoid representation



Suppose we have a moon $M$ following a circular orbit (with radius $R_M$) around a planet $P$, which is in turn following a circular orbit (with radius $R_P$) around a star $S$. The angular velocity of $M$ around $P$ is given to be $omega_M$ and the angular velocity of $P$ around $S$ is given to be $omega_P$. Then $M$ will trace out an epicycle $$p(t)=leftlangle R_Pcosleft(omega_P,tright)+R_Mcosleft(omega_M,tright),,R_Psinleft(omega_P,tright)+R_Msinleft(omega_M,tright)rightrangle$$



I am trying to represent this epicycle as an epitrochoid (EDIT: by which I mean that $M$ does not need to lie on the circumference of the rolling circle) (assuming both angular velocities to be positive), where the fixed circle centered at $S$ has radius $R$ and the rolling circle centered at $P$ has radius $r$. So I must relate $R$ and $r$ to the given values. Clearly, $R=R_P-r$.



Suppose a time $t$ as passed, and $P$ has revolved through an angle $theta$ around $S$ and $M$ has revolved through an angle $phi$ around $P$. By the construction of an epitrochoid (rolling without slipping), we have that $Rtheta=rphi$. Now, since $displaystyle t=frac{theta}{omega_P}=frac{phi}{omega_M}$, we have that $Romega_P=romega_M$. So $$displaystyle R=frac{R_Pomega_M}{omega_M+omega_P},;r=frac{R_Pomega_P}{omega_M+omega_P}$$
A similar working out can be done if one of the angular velocities is negative and the other is positive, though the curve would be a hypotrochoid.



Except, this doesn't work. When I tested this out in GeoGebra I found that the arc lengths "rolled" did not equal each other, that is, there was slippage while rolling. The actual epitrochoid corresponding to $R$, $r$, and $R_M$ did not match the epicycle. What have I done wrong?



Given <span class=$omega_P=frac{pi}{3}$ and $omega_M=frac{7pi}{6}$, GeoGebra calculated $R=frac{28}{9}$ and $r=frac{8}{9}$. The measured arc lengths are unequal.">





UPDATE: I have been messing around in GeoGebra further and found that the actual value for $R$ in the above example (where $R_P=4$, $R_M=1$, $omega_P=frac{pi}{3}$, and $omega_M=frac{7pi}{6}$) is about 2.8572. I have tried further decimal approximations but could not find a fraction with the value.



Approximately correct



Furthermore when $R_P=4$, $R_M=1$, $omega_P=1$, and $omega_M=4$, then $R$ is exactly 3.



Exactly correct



Unfortunately I cannot find a formula which produces both of these answers using the given values.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    0












    $begingroup$


    Diagram showing planet and moon orbits for the epicycle and the corresponding fixed and rolling circle combination for the epitrochoid representation



    Suppose we have a moon $M$ following a circular orbit (with radius $R_M$) around a planet $P$, which is in turn following a circular orbit (with radius $R_P$) around a star $S$. The angular velocity of $M$ around $P$ is given to be $omega_M$ and the angular velocity of $P$ around $S$ is given to be $omega_P$. Then $M$ will trace out an epicycle $$p(t)=leftlangle R_Pcosleft(omega_P,tright)+R_Mcosleft(omega_M,tright),,R_Psinleft(omega_P,tright)+R_Msinleft(omega_M,tright)rightrangle$$



    I am trying to represent this epicycle as an epitrochoid (EDIT: by which I mean that $M$ does not need to lie on the circumference of the rolling circle) (assuming both angular velocities to be positive), where the fixed circle centered at $S$ has radius $R$ and the rolling circle centered at $P$ has radius $r$. So I must relate $R$ and $r$ to the given values. Clearly, $R=R_P-r$.



    Suppose a time $t$ as passed, and $P$ has revolved through an angle $theta$ around $S$ and $M$ has revolved through an angle $phi$ around $P$. By the construction of an epitrochoid (rolling without slipping), we have that $Rtheta=rphi$. Now, since $displaystyle t=frac{theta}{omega_P}=frac{phi}{omega_M}$, we have that $Romega_P=romega_M$. So $$displaystyle R=frac{R_Pomega_M}{omega_M+omega_P},;r=frac{R_Pomega_P}{omega_M+omega_P}$$
    A similar working out can be done if one of the angular velocities is negative and the other is positive, though the curve would be a hypotrochoid.



    Except, this doesn't work. When I tested this out in GeoGebra I found that the arc lengths "rolled" did not equal each other, that is, there was slippage while rolling. The actual epitrochoid corresponding to $R$, $r$, and $R_M$ did not match the epicycle. What have I done wrong?



    Given <span class=$omega_P=frac{pi}{3}$ and $omega_M=frac{7pi}{6}$, GeoGebra calculated $R=frac{28}{9}$ and $r=frac{8}{9}$. The measured arc lengths are unequal.">





    UPDATE: I have been messing around in GeoGebra further and found that the actual value for $R$ in the above example (where $R_P=4$, $R_M=1$, $omega_P=frac{pi}{3}$, and $omega_M=frac{7pi}{6}$) is about 2.8572. I have tried further decimal approximations but could not find a fraction with the value.



    Approximately correct



    Furthermore when $R_P=4$, $R_M=1$, $omega_P=1$, and $omega_M=4$, then $R$ is exactly 3.



    Exactly correct



    Unfortunately I cannot find a formula which produces both of these answers using the given values.










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      0












      0








      0





      $begingroup$


      Diagram showing planet and moon orbits for the epicycle and the corresponding fixed and rolling circle combination for the epitrochoid representation



      Suppose we have a moon $M$ following a circular orbit (with radius $R_M$) around a planet $P$, which is in turn following a circular orbit (with radius $R_P$) around a star $S$. The angular velocity of $M$ around $P$ is given to be $omega_M$ and the angular velocity of $P$ around $S$ is given to be $omega_P$. Then $M$ will trace out an epicycle $$p(t)=leftlangle R_Pcosleft(omega_P,tright)+R_Mcosleft(omega_M,tright),,R_Psinleft(omega_P,tright)+R_Msinleft(omega_M,tright)rightrangle$$



      I am trying to represent this epicycle as an epitrochoid (EDIT: by which I mean that $M$ does not need to lie on the circumference of the rolling circle) (assuming both angular velocities to be positive), where the fixed circle centered at $S$ has radius $R$ and the rolling circle centered at $P$ has radius $r$. So I must relate $R$ and $r$ to the given values. Clearly, $R=R_P-r$.



      Suppose a time $t$ as passed, and $P$ has revolved through an angle $theta$ around $S$ and $M$ has revolved through an angle $phi$ around $P$. By the construction of an epitrochoid (rolling without slipping), we have that $Rtheta=rphi$. Now, since $displaystyle t=frac{theta}{omega_P}=frac{phi}{omega_M}$, we have that $Romega_P=romega_M$. So $$displaystyle R=frac{R_Pomega_M}{omega_M+omega_P},;r=frac{R_Pomega_P}{omega_M+omega_P}$$
      A similar working out can be done if one of the angular velocities is negative and the other is positive, though the curve would be a hypotrochoid.



      Except, this doesn't work. When I tested this out in GeoGebra I found that the arc lengths "rolled" did not equal each other, that is, there was slippage while rolling. The actual epitrochoid corresponding to $R$, $r$, and $R_M$ did not match the epicycle. What have I done wrong?



      Given <span class=$omega_P=frac{pi}{3}$ and $omega_M=frac{7pi}{6}$, GeoGebra calculated $R=frac{28}{9}$ and $r=frac{8}{9}$. The measured arc lengths are unequal.">





      UPDATE: I have been messing around in GeoGebra further and found that the actual value for $R$ in the above example (where $R_P=4$, $R_M=1$, $omega_P=frac{pi}{3}$, and $omega_M=frac{7pi}{6}$) is about 2.8572. I have tried further decimal approximations but could not find a fraction with the value.



      Approximately correct



      Furthermore when $R_P=4$, $R_M=1$, $omega_P=1$, and $omega_M=4$, then $R$ is exactly 3.



      Exactly correct



      Unfortunately I cannot find a formula which produces both of these answers using the given values.










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Diagram showing planet and moon orbits for the epicycle and the corresponding fixed and rolling circle combination for the epitrochoid representation



      Suppose we have a moon $M$ following a circular orbit (with radius $R_M$) around a planet $P$, which is in turn following a circular orbit (with radius $R_P$) around a star $S$. The angular velocity of $M$ around $P$ is given to be $omega_M$ and the angular velocity of $P$ around $S$ is given to be $omega_P$. Then $M$ will trace out an epicycle $$p(t)=leftlangle R_Pcosleft(omega_P,tright)+R_Mcosleft(omega_M,tright),,R_Psinleft(omega_P,tright)+R_Msinleft(omega_M,tright)rightrangle$$



      I am trying to represent this epicycle as an epitrochoid (EDIT: by which I mean that $M$ does not need to lie on the circumference of the rolling circle) (assuming both angular velocities to be positive), where the fixed circle centered at $S$ has radius $R$ and the rolling circle centered at $P$ has radius $r$. So I must relate $R$ and $r$ to the given values. Clearly, $R=R_P-r$.



      Suppose a time $t$ as passed, and $P$ has revolved through an angle $theta$ around $S$ and $M$ has revolved through an angle $phi$ around $P$. By the construction of an epitrochoid (rolling without slipping), we have that $Rtheta=rphi$. Now, since $displaystyle t=frac{theta}{omega_P}=frac{phi}{omega_M}$, we have that $Romega_P=romega_M$. So $$displaystyle R=frac{R_Pomega_M}{omega_M+omega_P},;r=frac{R_Pomega_P}{omega_M+omega_P}$$
      A similar working out can be done if one of the angular velocities is negative and the other is positive, though the curve would be a hypotrochoid.



      Except, this doesn't work. When I tested this out in GeoGebra I found that the arc lengths "rolled" did not equal each other, that is, there was slippage while rolling. The actual epitrochoid corresponding to $R$, $r$, and $R_M$ did not match the epicycle. What have I done wrong?



      Given <span class=$omega_P=frac{pi}{3}$ and $omega_M=frac{7pi}{6}$, GeoGebra calculated $R=frac{28}{9}$ and $r=frac{8}{9}$. The measured arc lengths are unequal.">





      UPDATE: I have been messing around in GeoGebra further and found that the actual value for $R$ in the above example (where $R_P=4$, $R_M=1$, $omega_P=frac{pi}{3}$, and $omega_M=frac{7pi}{6}$) is about 2.8572. I have tried further decimal approximations but could not find a fraction with the value.



      Approximately correct



      Furthermore when $R_P=4$, $R_M=1$, $omega_P=1$, and $omega_M=4$, then $R$ is exactly 3.



      Exactly correct



      Unfortunately I cannot find a formula which produces both of these answers using the given values.







      geometry curves






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Dec 31 '18 at 1:00







      legendariers

















      asked Dec 29 '18 at 19:34









      legendarierslegendariers

      737




      737






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          0












          $begingroup$

          The issue is that $displaystyle tnot=frac{phi}{omega_M}$. Because the rolling circle is also revolving around the center of the fixed circle, we have to account for both effects, so $displaystyle t=frac{phi}{omega_M-omega_P}$. This means that $displaystyle Romega_P=rleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)$, so $$displaystyle R=frac{R_Pleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)}{omega_M},,r=frac{R_Pomega_P}{omega_M}$$






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













            Your Answer





            StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
            return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
            StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
            StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
            });
            });
            }, "mathjax-editing");

            StackExchange.ready(function() {
            var channelOptions = {
            tags: "".split(" "),
            id: "69"
            };
            initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

            StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
            // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
            if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
            StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
            createEditor();
            });
            }
            else {
            createEditor();
            }
            });

            function createEditor() {
            StackExchange.prepareEditor({
            heartbeatType: 'answer',
            autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
            convertImagesToLinks: true,
            noModals: true,
            showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
            reputationToPostImages: 10,
            bindNavPrevention: true,
            postfix: "",
            imageUploader: {
            brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
            contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
            allowUrls: true
            },
            noCode: true, onDemand: true,
            discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
            ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
            });


            }
            });














            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3056183%2fhow-do-i-find-the-radii-for-the-fixed-circle-and-rolling-circle-to-represent-an%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown

























            1 Answer
            1






            active

            oldest

            votes








            1 Answer
            1






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            0












            $begingroup$

            The issue is that $displaystyle tnot=frac{phi}{omega_M}$. Because the rolling circle is also revolving around the center of the fixed circle, we have to account for both effects, so $displaystyle t=frac{phi}{omega_M-omega_P}$. This means that $displaystyle Romega_P=rleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)$, so $$displaystyle R=frac{R_Pleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)}{omega_M},,r=frac{R_Pomega_P}{omega_M}$$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$


















              0












              $begingroup$

              The issue is that $displaystyle tnot=frac{phi}{omega_M}$. Because the rolling circle is also revolving around the center of the fixed circle, we have to account for both effects, so $displaystyle t=frac{phi}{omega_M-omega_P}$. This means that $displaystyle Romega_P=rleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)$, so $$displaystyle R=frac{R_Pleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)}{omega_M},,r=frac{R_Pomega_P}{omega_M}$$






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$
















                0












                0








                0





                $begingroup$

                The issue is that $displaystyle tnot=frac{phi}{omega_M}$. Because the rolling circle is also revolving around the center of the fixed circle, we have to account for both effects, so $displaystyle t=frac{phi}{omega_M-omega_P}$. This means that $displaystyle Romega_P=rleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)$, so $$displaystyle R=frac{R_Pleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)}{omega_M},,r=frac{R_Pomega_P}{omega_M}$$






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                The issue is that $displaystyle tnot=frac{phi}{omega_M}$. Because the rolling circle is also revolving around the center of the fixed circle, we have to account for both effects, so $displaystyle t=frac{phi}{omega_M-omega_P}$. This means that $displaystyle Romega_P=rleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)$, so $$displaystyle R=frac{R_Pleft(omega_M-omega_Pright)}{omega_M},,r=frac{R_Pomega_P}{omega_M}$$







                share|cite|improve this answer












                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer










                answered Dec 31 '18 at 18:55









                legendarierslegendariers

                737




                737






























                    draft saved

                    draft discarded




















































                    Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                    But avoid



                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                    Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                    draft saved


                    draft discarded














                    StackExchange.ready(
                    function () {
                    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3056183%2fhow-do-i-find-the-radii-for-the-fixed-circle-and-rolling-circle-to-represent-an%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                    }
                    );

                    Post as a guest















                    Required, but never shown





















































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown

































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown







                    Popular posts from this blog

                    To store a contact into the json file from server.js file using a class in NodeJS

                    Redirect URL with Chrome Remote Debugging Android Devices

                    Dieringhausen