The definition of the product of sets
$begingroup$
I got a definition :
If I is a nonempty set and for each i in I we have a nonempty sets $ X_i$, then the product of these sets is defined by $$prod_{iin I}X_i={x:I rightarrow bigcup_{iin I} X_i:x(i)in X_itext{ for all } i in I}$$
The definition is from [https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783319023670 ]. I think this is not easy to understand it.
Assume we want to prove :
Suppose I is a set, $X_i$ are topological spaces with subsets $A_i$ for $i in I$.
Then, there holds $operatorname{Clos}prod_{iin I}A_i=prod_{iin I}operatorname{Clos} A_i$
Then, the proof
$$prod_{iin I}operatorname{Clos} A_i$$
$$={x:I rightarrow bigcup_{iin I} operatorname{Clos} A_i : x(i)in operatorname{Clos} A_i text{ for all } i in I} $$
$$={x:I rightarrow operatorname{Clos}(bigcup_{iin I} A_i) :x(i)in operatorname{Clos} A_i text{ for all } i in I}$$
$$=operatorname{Clos} prod_{iin I}A_i$$
is right?
general-topology
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I got a definition :
If I is a nonempty set and for each i in I we have a nonempty sets $ X_i$, then the product of these sets is defined by $$prod_{iin I}X_i={x:I rightarrow bigcup_{iin I} X_i:x(i)in X_itext{ for all } i in I}$$
The definition is from [https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783319023670 ]. I think this is not easy to understand it.
Assume we want to prove :
Suppose I is a set, $X_i$ are topological spaces with subsets $A_i$ for $i in I$.
Then, there holds $operatorname{Clos}prod_{iin I}A_i=prod_{iin I}operatorname{Clos} A_i$
Then, the proof
$$prod_{iin I}operatorname{Clos} A_i$$
$$={x:I rightarrow bigcup_{iin I} operatorname{Clos} A_i : x(i)in operatorname{Clos} A_i text{ for all } i in I} $$
$$={x:I rightarrow operatorname{Clos}(bigcup_{iin I} A_i) :x(i)in operatorname{Clos} A_i text{ for all } i in I}$$
$$=operatorname{Clos} prod_{iin I}A_i$$
is right?
general-topology
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I got a definition :
If I is a nonempty set and for each i in I we have a nonempty sets $ X_i$, then the product of these sets is defined by $$prod_{iin I}X_i={x:I rightarrow bigcup_{iin I} X_i:x(i)in X_itext{ for all } i in I}$$
The definition is from [https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783319023670 ]. I think this is not easy to understand it.
Assume we want to prove :
Suppose I is a set, $X_i$ are topological spaces with subsets $A_i$ for $i in I$.
Then, there holds $operatorname{Clos}prod_{iin I}A_i=prod_{iin I}operatorname{Clos} A_i$
Then, the proof
$$prod_{iin I}operatorname{Clos} A_i$$
$$={x:I rightarrow bigcup_{iin I} operatorname{Clos} A_i : x(i)in operatorname{Clos} A_i text{ for all } i in I} $$
$$={x:I rightarrow operatorname{Clos}(bigcup_{iin I} A_i) :x(i)in operatorname{Clos} A_i text{ for all } i in I}$$
$$=operatorname{Clos} prod_{iin I}A_i$$
is right?
general-topology
$endgroup$
I got a definition :
If I is a nonempty set and for each i in I we have a nonempty sets $ X_i$, then the product of these sets is defined by $$prod_{iin I}X_i={x:I rightarrow bigcup_{iin I} X_i:x(i)in X_itext{ for all } i in I}$$
The definition is from [https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783319023670 ]. I think this is not easy to understand it.
Assume we want to prove :
Suppose I is a set, $X_i$ are topological spaces with subsets $A_i$ for $i in I$.
Then, there holds $operatorname{Clos}prod_{iin I}A_i=prod_{iin I}operatorname{Clos} A_i$
Then, the proof
$$prod_{iin I}operatorname{Clos} A_i$$
$$={x:I rightarrow bigcup_{iin I} operatorname{Clos} A_i : x(i)in operatorname{Clos} A_i text{ for all } i in I} $$
$$={x:I rightarrow operatorname{Clos}(bigcup_{iin I} A_i) :x(i)in operatorname{Clos} A_i text{ for all } i in I}$$
$$=operatorname{Clos} prod_{iin I}A_i$$
is right?
general-topology
general-topology
edited Dec 21 '18 at 14:50
Henno Brandsma
111k348118
111k348118
asked Dec 21 '18 at 13:52
user627221
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
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$begingroup$
No, closure does not commute with infinite unions as you want to use in the step from line 2 to line 3. The last step is also nonsense, as the closure of a product set depends on the topology we put on the product: it's not a pure set theory fact.
You need to show two inclusions and use the definition of closure and the specific form of open sets in the product topology.
If you have covered nets (generalised sequences) in your course, the following proof does work (modulo some minor details, but in essence):
$x in operatorname{Clos} prod_i A_i$ iff there is some net $(a_n)_{n in N}$ where all $a_n in prod_{i in I} A_i$ and $a_n to x$ iff for all $i in I$ $(a_n)(i) to x(i)$ iff for all $i in I$, $x(i) in operatorname{Clos} A_i$ iff $x in prod_i operatorname{Clos} A_i$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your solution is making the assumptions that
1) $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_i=Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ but you can easily see that what holds, in general, is that $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_isubseteq Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ where the equality might not hold in general, eg consider $A_i=(frac{1}{i+1},frac{1}{i}),iin mathbb{N}$ then, $bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i=(0,1]neq Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i=[0,1]$.
2)$Closprodlimits_{iin I}A_i=Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$ which does not make much sense as now you must consider closure of a set of functions but you must know the topology on them to know how to deal with them.
I know of a way to prove the aforementioned result in the product or box topology using the fact that $xin ClosA iff for any Uni x open in X, Ucap Xneq phi$, you can find the same in munkres at the end of the section on product topology(section-19). Though I'm pretty sure it should be provable this way also, I'm not able to come up with analogs for the product or box topology in this functional form, i.e., you have to show that $$Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$$
$endgroup$
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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$begingroup$
No, closure does not commute with infinite unions as you want to use in the step from line 2 to line 3. The last step is also nonsense, as the closure of a product set depends on the topology we put on the product: it's not a pure set theory fact.
You need to show two inclusions and use the definition of closure and the specific form of open sets in the product topology.
If you have covered nets (generalised sequences) in your course, the following proof does work (modulo some minor details, but in essence):
$x in operatorname{Clos} prod_i A_i$ iff there is some net $(a_n)_{n in N}$ where all $a_n in prod_{i in I} A_i$ and $a_n to x$ iff for all $i in I$ $(a_n)(i) to x(i)$ iff for all $i in I$, $x(i) in operatorname{Clos} A_i$ iff $x in prod_i operatorname{Clos} A_i$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, closure does not commute with infinite unions as you want to use in the step from line 2 to line 3. The last step is also nonsense, as the closure of a product set depends on the topology we put on the product: it's not a pure set theory fact.
You need to show two inclusions and use the definition of closure and the specific form of open sets in the product topology.
If you have covered nets (generalised sequences) in your course, the following proof does work (modulo some minor details, but in essence):
$x in operatorname{Clos} prod_i A_i$ iff there is some net $(a_n)_{n in N}$ where all $a_n in prod_{i in I} A_i$ and $a_n to x$ iff for all $i in I$ $(a_n)(i) to x(i)$ iff for all $i in I$, $x(i) in operatorname{Clos} A_i$ iff $x in prod_i operatorname{Clos} A_i$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, closure does not commute with infinite unions as you want to use in the step from line 2 to line 3. The last step is also nonsense, as the closure of a product set depends on the topology we put on the product: it's not a pure set theory fact.
You need to show two inclusions and use the definition of closure and the specific form of open sets in the product topology.
If you have covered nets (generalised sequences) in your course, the following proof does work (modulo some minor details, but in essence):
$x in operatorname{Clos} prod_i A_i$ iff there is some net $(a_n)_{n in N}$ where all $a_n in prod_{i in I} A_i$ and $a_n to x$ iff for all $i in I$ $(a_n)(i) to x(i)$ iff for all $i in I$, $x(i) in operatorname{Clos} A_i$ iff $x in prod_i operatorname{Clos} A_i$.
$endgroup$
No, closure does not commute with infinite unions as you want to use in the step from line 2 to line 3. The last step is also nonsense, as the closure of a product set depends on the topology we put on the product: it's not a pure set theory fact.
You need to show two inclusions and use the definition of closure and the specific form of open sets in the product topology.
If you have covered nets (generalised sequences) in your course, the following proof does work (modulo some minor details, but in essence):
$x in operatorname{Clos} prod_i A_i$ iff there is some net $(a_n)_{n in N}$ where all $a_n in prod_{i in I} A_i$ and $a_n to x$ iff for all $i in I$ $(a_n)(i) to x(i)$ iff for all $i in I$, $x(i) in operatorname{Clos} A_i$ iff $x in prod_i operatorname{Clos} A_i$.
edited Dec 21 '18 at 15:05
answered Dec 21 '18 at 14:45
Henno BrandsmaHenno Brandsma
111k348118
111k348118
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your solution is making the assumptions that
1) $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_i=Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ but you can easily see that what holds, in general, is that $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_isubseteq Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ where the equality might not hold in general, eg consider $A_i=(frac{1}{i+1},frac{1}{i}),iin mathbb{N}$ then, $bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i=(0,1]neq Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i=[0,1]$.
2)$Closprodlimits_{iin I}A_i=Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$ which does not make much sense as now you must consider closure of a set of functions but you must know the topology on them to know how to deal with them.
I know of a way to prove the aforementioned result in the product or box topology using the fact that $xin ClosA iff for any Uni x open in X, Ucap Xneq phi$, you can find the same in munkres at the end of the section on product topology(section-19). Though I'm pretty sure it should be provable this way also, I'm not able to come up with analogs for the product or box topology in this functional form, i.e., you have to show that $$Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your solution is making the assumptions that
1) $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_i=Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ but you can easily see that what holds, in general, is that $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_isubseteq Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ where the equality might not hold in general, eg consider $A_i=(frac{1}{i+1},frac{1}{i}),iin mathbb{N}$ then, $bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i=(0,1]neq Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i=[0,1]$.
2)$Closprodlimits_{iin I}A_i=Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$ which does not make much sense as now you must consider closure of a set of functions but you must know the topology on them to know how to deal with them.
I know of a way to prove the aforementioned result in the product or box topology using the fact that $xin ClosA iff for any Uni x open in X, Ucap Xneq phi$, you can find the same in munkres at the end of the section on product topology(section-19). Though I'm pretty sure it should be provable this way also, I'm not able to come up with analogs for the product or box topology in this functional form, i.e., you have to show that $$Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your solution is making the assumptions that
1) $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_i=Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ but you can easily see that what holds, in general, is that $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_isubseteq Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ where the equality might not hold in general, eg consider $A_i=(frac{1}{i+1},frac{1}{i}),iin mathbb{N}$ then, $bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i=(0,1]neq Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i=[0,1]$.
2)$Closprodlimits_{iin I}A_i=Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$ which does not make much sense as now you must consider closure of a set of functions but you must know the topology on them to know how to deal with them.
I know of a way to prove the aforementioned result in the product or box topology using the fact that $xin ClosA iff for any Uni x open in X, Ucap Xneq phi$, you can find the same in munkres at the end of the section on product topology(section-19). Though I'm pretty sure it should be provable this way also, I'm not able to come up with analogs for the product or box topology in this functional form, i.e., you have to show that $$Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$$
$endgroup$
Your solution is making the assumptions that
1) $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_i=Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ but you can easily see that what holds, in general, is that $bigcuplimits_{iin I}ClosA_isubseteq Closbigcuplimits_{iin I}A_i$ where the equality might not hold in general, eg consider $A_i=(frac{1}{i+1},frac{1}{i}),iin mathbb{N}$ then, $bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i=(0,1]neq Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i=[0,1]$.
2)$Closprodlimits_{iin I}A_i=Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow Closbigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$ which does not make much sense as now you must consider closure of a set of functions but you must know the topology on them to know how to deal with them.
I know of a way to prove the aforementioned result in the product or box topology using the fact that $xin ClosA iff for any Uni x open in X, Ucap Xneq phi$, you can find the same in munkres at the end of the section on product topology(section-19). Though I'm pretty sure it should be provable this way also, I'm not able to come up with analogs for the product or box topology in this functional form, i.e., you have to show that $$Clos{x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}A_i|x(i)in A_i forall iin I}={x:Irightarrow bigcuplimits_{iin mathbb{N}}ClosA_i|x(i)in ClosA_i forall iin I}$$
answered Dec 21 '18 at 15:34
MustangMustang
3367
3367
add a comment |
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