Uncountable orthonormal set in a Hilbert space












2












$begingroup$


Let $H$ be a Hilbert space.



Why if $H$ has an uncountable orthonormal set $ F={B_i ; iin I} $ then it cannot have a countable basis ?










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  • $begingroup$
    What are your thoughts on this?
    $endgroup$
    – MisterRiemann
    Dec 13 '18 at 18:17


















2












$begingroup$


Let $H$ be a Hilbert space.



Why if $H$ has an uncountable orthonormal set $ F={B_i ; iin I} $ then it cannot have a countable basis ?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    What are your thoughts on this?
    $endgroup$
    – MisterRiemann
    Dec 13 '18 at 18:17
















2












2








2





$begingroup$


Let $H$ be a Hilbert space.



Why if $H$ has an uncountable orthonormal set $ F={B_i ; iin I} $ then it cannot have a countable basis ?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




Let $H$ be a Hilbert space.



Why if $H$ has an uncountable orthonormal set $ F={B_i ; iin I} $ then it cannot have a countable basis ?







hilbert-spaces






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asked Dec 13 '18 at 18:12









Anas BOUALIIAnas BOUALII

1397




1397












  • $begingroup$
    What are your thoughts on this?
    $endgroup$
    – MisterRiemann
    Dec 13 '18 at 18:17




















  • $begingroup$
    What are your thoughts on this?
    $endgroup$
    – MisterRiemann
    Dec 13 '18 at 18:17


















$begingroup$
What are your thoughts on this?
$endgroup$
– MisterRiemann
Dec 13 '18 at 18:17






$begingroup$
What are your thoughts on this?
$endgroup$
– MisterRiemann
Dec 13 '18 at 18:17












3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

You can prove (or consider) the reverse, meaning the statement/lemma :




Let $H$ be an infinite dimensional Hilbert space. Then, $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis if and only if $H$ has a dense countable set.




To prove that, I will note some quick hints.



First let us assume that $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis ${e_n}$. Then any $x in H$ can be uniquely written as :



$$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



But, such $x$ can be written as a linear combination of rationals



$$x = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n$$



since the set $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is a countable and dense subset of $mathbb C$.



Consider now the set :



$$D_n = bigg{d_n = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n, ; q_n in mathbb Q + mathbb Qibigg}$$



Then the set $D$ defined as



$$D = bigcup_{n=1} D_n$$



is countable as a union of countable sets.



Now you need to show that $D$ is also dense. But, note that since the



$$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



converges, its partial sum serie should also converge, thus



$$left| sumlimits_{n=N+1} langle x,e_nrangle e_nright|< frac{varepsilon}{2}$$



for $N in mathbb N$ sufficiently large and $varepsilon >0$.



Now, keep in mind that $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is not only countable, but dense and use the Triangle Inequality and Parseval's Inequality to prove that :



$$left| sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n - sum_{n=1}^N q_ie_n right| < varepsilon$$





For the converse, assume that $H$ has a countable dense set ${h_j}$ with $j in mathbb N$ and that ${e_i}$ is an orthonormal basis with $i in mathbb N$. Now, try to reach a contradiction by assuming that the orthonormal basis is uncountable.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I get the theorem that you just proved, but i think that there s a simple response to my question (without using density) because $F$ is just an uncoutable orthonormal set.
    $endgroup$
    – Anas BOUALII
    Dec 13 '18 at 18:56










  • $begingroup$
    You do need to use density, but the answer is pretty straightforward. See below.
    $endgroup$
    – Matematleta
    Dec 13 '18 at 22:43



















0












$begingroup$

If $left { e_n:nin mathbb N right }$ is an orthonormal basis for $mathcal H$, then $left { sum_{k=0}^{N}q_k+ir_k:q_k,r_kin mathbb Q,Nin mathbb N right }$ ia a countable dense subset.



If $mathcal H$ has an uncountable orthonormal basis, say, $left { e_{alpha}:alphain Lambda right }$ and a dense subset $D$, then, since $|e_{alpha}-e_{beta}|^2=2$ whenever $alpha neq beta$, the balls $B(alpha,sqrt2/2)$ are disjoint and so since each of them must contain a point $x_{alpha}in D$, the map $alphato x_{alpha}$ shows that $D$ is uncountable.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    0












    $begingroup$

    I already wrote this in a comment under an answer but that answer was erased, and it seems to be this is the easiest answer, unless I'm missing something basic: a set of orthonormal vectors in any inner product space, and thus also in Hilbert spaces, is linearly independent (reasonably easy proof), and thus in your question $;F;$ is a lin. indpendent set, which means $;dim Hge|F|ge 2^{aleph_0};$ , and since all the basis of a vector space (or Hilbert space) have the same cardinality we're through.



    The above remains true taking closures of spans and stuff, as far as I see it...






    share|cite|improve this answer









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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      1












      $begingroup$

      You can prove (or consider) the reverse, meaning the statement/lemma :




      Let $H$ be an infinite dimensional Hilbert space. Then, $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis if and only if $H$ has a dense countable set.




      To prove that, I will note some quick hints.



      First let us assume that $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis ${e_n}$. Then any $x in H$ can be uniquely written as :



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



      But, such $x$ can be written as a linear combination of rationals



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n$$



      since the set $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is a countable and dense subset of $mathbb C$.



      Consider now the set :



      $$D_n = bigg{d_n = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n, ; q_n in mathbb Q + mathbb Qibigg}$$



      Then the set $D$ defined as



      $$D = bigcup_{n=1} D_n$$



      is countable as a union of countable sets.



      Now you need to show that $D$ is also dense. But, note that since the



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



      converges, its partial sum serie should also converge, thus



      $$left| sumlimits_{n=N+1} langle x,e_nrangle e_nright|< frac{varepsilon}{2}$$



      for $N in mathbb N$ sufficiently large and $varepsilon >0$.



      Now, keep in mind that $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is not only countable, but dense and use the Triangle Inequality and Parseval's Inequality to prove that :



      $$left| sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n - sum_{n=1}^N q_ie_n right| < varepsilon$$





      For the converse, assume that $H$ has a countable dense set ${h_j}$ with $j in mathbb N$ and that ${e_i}$ is an orthonormal basis with $i in mathbb N$. Now, try to reach a contradiction by assuming that the orthonormal basis is uncountable.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        I get the theorem that you just proved, but i think that there s a simple response to my question (without using density) because $F$ is just an uncoutable orthonormal set.
        $endgroup$
        – Anas BOUALII
        Dec 13 '18 at 18:56










      • $begingroup$
        You do need to use density, but the answer is pretty straightforward. See below.
        $endgroup$
        – Matematleta
        Dec 13 '18 at 22:43
















      1












      $begingroup$

      You can prove (or consider) the reverse, meaning the statement/lemma :




      Let $H$ be an infinite dimensional Hilbert space. Then, $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis if and only if $H$ has a dense countable set.




      To prove that, I will note some quick hints.



      First let us assume that $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis ${e_n}$. Then any $x in H$ can be uniquely written as :



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



      But, such $x$ can be written as a linear combination of rationals



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n$$



      since the set $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is a countable and dense subset of $mathbb C$.



      Consider now the set :



      $$D_n = bigg{d_n = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n, ; q_n in mathbb Q + mathbb Qibigg}$$



      Then the set $D$ defined as



      $$D = bigcup_{n=1} D_n$$



      is countable as a union of countable sets.



      Now you need to show that $D$ is also dense. But, note that since the



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



      converges, its partial sum serie should also converge, thus



      $$left| sumlimits_{n=N+1} langle x,e_nrangle e_nright|< frac{varepsilon}{2}$$



      for $N in mathbb N$ sufficiently large and $varepsilon >0$.



      Now, keep in mind that $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is not only countable, but dense and use the Triangle Inequality and Parseval's Inequality to prove that :



      $$left| sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n - sum_{n=1}^N q_ie_n right| < varepsilon$$





      For the converse, assume that $H$ has a countable dense set ${h_j}$ with $j in mathbb N$ and that ${e_i}$ is an orthonormal basis with $i in mathbb N$. Now, try to reach a contradiction by assuming that the orthonormal basis is uncountable.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        I get the theorem that you just proved, but i think that there s a simple response to my question (without using density) because $F$ is just an uncoutable orthonormal set.
        $endgroup$
        – Anas BOUALII
        Dec 13 '18 at 18:56










      • $begingroup$
        You do need to use density, but the answer is pretty straightforward. See below.
        $endgroup$
        – Matematleta
        Dec 13 '18 at 22:43














      1












      1








      1





      $begingroup$

      You can prove (or consider) the reverse, meaning the statement/lemma :




      Let $H$ be an infinite dimensional Hilbert space. Then, $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis if and only if $H$ has a dense countable set.




      To prove that, I will note some quick hints.



      First let us assume that $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis ${e_n}$. Then any $x in H$ can be uniquely written as :



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



      But, such $x$ can be written as a linear combination of rationals



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n$$



      since the set $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is a countable and dense subset of $mathbb C$.



      Consider now the set :



      $$D_n = bigg{d_n = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n, ; q_n in mathbb Q + mathbb Qibigg}$$



      Then the set $D$ defined as



      $$D = bigcup_{n=1} D_n$$



      is countable as a union of countable sets.



      Now you need to show that $D$ is also dense. But, note that since the



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



      converges, its partial sum serie should also converge, thus



      $$left| sumlimits_{n=N+1} langle x,e_nrangle e_nright|< frac{varepsilon}{2}$$



      for $N in mathbb N$ sufficiently large and $varepsilon >0$.



      Now, keep in mind that $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is not only countable, but dense and use the Triangle Inequality and Parseval's Inequality to prove that :



      $$left| sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n - sum_{n=1}^N q_ie_n right| < varepsilon$$





      For the converse, assume that $H$ has a countable dense set ${h_j}$ with $j in mathbb N$ and that ${e_i}$ is an orthonormal basis with $i in mathbb N$. Now, try to reach a contradiction by assuming that the orthonormal basis is uncountable.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$



      You can prove (or consider) the reverse, meaning the statement/lemma :




      Let $H$ be an infinite dimensional Hilbert space. Then, $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis if and only if $H$ has a dense countable set.




      To prove that, I will note some quick hints.



      First let us assume that $H$ has a countable orthonormal basis ${e_n}$. Then any $x in H$ can be uniquely written as :



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



      But, such $x$ can be written as a linear combination of rationals



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n$$



      since the set $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is a countable and dense subset of $mathbb C$.



      Consider now the set :



      $$D_n = bigg{d_n = sum_{n=1}^m q_ne_n, ; q_n in mathbb Q + mathbb Qibigg}$$



      Then the set $D$ defined as



      $$D = bigcup_{n=1} D_n$$



      is countable as a union of countable sets.



      Now you need to show that $D$ is also dense. But, note that since the



      $$x = sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n$$



      converges, its partial sum serie should also converge, thus



      $$left| sumlimits_{n=N+1} langle x,e_nrangle e_nright|< frac{varepsilon}{2}$$



      for $N in mathbb N$ sufficiently large and $varepsilon >0$.



      Now, keep in mind that $mathbb Q + mathbb Qi$ is not only countable, but dense and use the Triangle Inequality and Parseval's Inequality to prove that :



      $$left| sum_{n=1}^infty langle x,e_nrangle e_n - sum_{n=1}^N q_ie_n right| < varepsilon$$





      For the converse, assume that $H$ has a countable dense set ${h_j}$ with $j in mathbb N$ and that ${e_i}$ is an orthonormal basis with $i in mathbb N$. Now, try to reach a contradiction by assuming that the orthonormal basis is uncountable.







      share|cite|improve this answer














      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer








      edited Dec 13 '18 at 18:51









      daw

      24.3k1645




      24.3k1645










      answered Dec 13 '18 at 18:44









      RebellosRebellos

      14.6k31247




      14.6k31247












      • $begingroup$
        I get the theorem that you just proved, but i think that there s a simple response to my question (without using density) because $F$ is just an uncoutable orthonormal set.
        $endgroup$
        – Anas BOUALII
        Dec 13 '18 at 18:56










      • $begingroup$
        You do need to use density, but the answer is pretty straightforward. See below.
        $endgroup$
        – Matematleta
        Dec 13 '18 at 22:43


















      • $begingroup$
        I get the theorem that you just proved, but i think that there s a simple response to my question (without using density) because $F$ is just an uncoutable orthonormal set.
        $endgroup$
        – Anas BOUALII
        Dec 13 '18 at 18:56










      • $begingroup$
        You do need to use density, but the answer is pretty straightforward. See below.
        $endgroup$
        – Matematleta
        Dec 13 '18 at 22:43
















      $begingroup$
      I get the theorem that you just proved, but i think that there s a simple response to my question (without using density) because $F$ is just an uncoutable orthonormal set.
      $endgroup$
      – Anas BOUALII
      Dec 13 '18 at 18:56




      $begingroup$
      I get the theorem that you just proved, but i think that there s a simple response to my question (without using density) because $F$ is just an uncoutable orthonormal set.
      $endgroup$
      – Anas BOUALII
      Dec 13 '18 at 18:56












      $begingroup$
      You do need to use density, but the answer is pretty straightforward. See below.
      $endgroup$
      – Matematleta
      Dec 13 '18 at 22:43




      $begingroup$
      You do need to use density, but the answer is pretty straightforward. See below.
      $endgroup$
      – Matematleta
      Dec 13 '18 at 22:43











      0












      $begingroup$

      If $left { e_n:nin mathbb N right }$ is an orthonormal basis for $mathcal H$, then $left { sum_{k=0}^{N}q_k+ir_k:q_k,r_kin mathbb Q,Nin mathbb N right }$ ia a countable dense subset.



      If $mathcal H$ has an uncountable orthonormal basis, say, $left { e_{alpha}:alphain Lambda right }$ and a dense subset $D$, then, since $|e_{alpha}-e_{beta}|^2=2$ whenever $alpha neq beta$, the balls $B(alpha,sqrt2/2)$ are disjoint and so since each of them must contain a point $x_{alpha}in D$, the map $alphato x_{alpha}$ shows that $D$ is uncountable.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        0












        $begingroup$

        If $left { e_n:nin mathbb N right }$ is an orthonormal basis for $mathcal H$, then $left { sum_{k=0}^{N}q_k+ir_k:q_k,r_kin mathbb Q,Nin mathbb N right }$ ia a countable dense subset.



        If $mathcal H$ has an uncountable orthonormal basis, say, $left { e_{alpha}:alphain Lambda right }$ and a dense subset $D$, then, since $|e_{alpha}-e_{beta}|^2=2$ whenever $alpha neq beta$, the balls $B(alpha,sqrt2/2)$ are disjoint and so since each of them must contain a point $x_{alpha}in D$, the map $alphato x_{alpha}$ shows that $D$ is uncountable.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          0












          0








          0





          $begingroup$

          If $left { e_n:nin mathbb N right }$ is an orthonormal basis for $mathcal H$, then $left { sum_{k=0}^{N}q_k+ir_k:q_k,r_kin mathbb Q,Nin mathbb N right }$ ia a countable dense subset.



          If $mathcal H$ has an uncountable orthonormal basis, say, $left { e_{alpha}:alphain Lambda right }$ and a dense subset $D$, then, since $|e_{alpha}-e_{beta}|^2=2$ whenever $alpha neq beta$, the balls $B(alpha,sqrt2/2)$ are disjoint and so since each of them must contain a point $x_{alpha}in D$, the map $alphato x_{alpha}$ shows that $D$ is uncountable.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          If $left { e_n:nin mathbb N right }$ is an orthonormal basis for $mathcal H$, then $left { sum_{k=0}^{N}q_k+ir_k:q_k,r_kin mathbb Q,Nin mathbb N right }$ ia a countable dense subset.



          If $mathcal H$ has an uncountable orthonormal basis, say, $left { e_{alpha}:alphain Lambda right }$ and a dense subset $D$, then, since $|e_{alpha}-e_{beta}|^2=2$ whenever $alpha neq beta$, the balls $B(alpha,sqrt2/2)$ are disjoint and so since each of them must contain a point $x_{alpha}in D$, the map $alphato x_{alpha}$ shows that $D$ is uncountable.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Dec 13 '18 at 22:36









          MatematletaMatematleta

          10.8k2918




          10.8k2918























              0












              $begingroup$

              I already wrote this in a comment under an answer but that answer was erased, and it seems to be this is the easiest answer, unless I'm missing something basic: a set of orthonormal vectors in any inner product space, and thus also in Hilbert spaces, is linearly independent (reasonably easy proof), and thus in your question $;F;$ is a lin. indpendent set, which means $;dim Hge|F|ge 2^{aleph_0};$ , and since all the basis of a vector space (or Hilbert space) have the same cardinality we're through.



              The above remains true taking closures of spans and stuff, as far as I see it...






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                0












                $begingroup$

                I already wrote this in a comment under an answer but that answer was erased, and it seems to be this is the easiest answer, unless I'm missing something basic: a set of orthonormal vectors in any inner product space, and thus also in Hilbert spaces, is linearly independent (reasonably easy proof), and thus in your question $;F;$ is a lin. indpendent set, which means $;dim Hge|F|ge 2^{aleph_0};$ , and since all the basis of a vector space (or Hilbert space) have the same cardinality we're through.



                The above remains true taking closures of spans and stuff, as far as I see it...






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  I already wrote this in a comment under an answer but that answer was erased, and it seems to be this is the easiest answer, unless I'm missing something basic: a set of orthonormal vectors in any inner product space, and thus also in Hilbert spaces, is linearly independent (reasonably easy proof), and thus in your question $;F;$ is a lin. indpendent set, which means $;dim Hge|F|ge 2^{aleph_0};$ , and since all the basis of a vector space (or Hilbert space) have the same cardinality we're through.



                  The above remains true taking closures of spans and stuff, as far as I see it...






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  I already wrote this in a comment under an answer but that answer was erased, and it seems to be this is the easiest answer, unless I'm missing something basic: a set of orthonormal vectors in any inner product space, and thus also in Hilbert spaces, is linearly independent (reasonably easy proof), and thus in your question $;F;$ is a lin. indpendent set, which means $;dim Hge|F|ge 2^{aleph_0};$ , and since all the basis of a vector space (or Hilbert space) have the same cardinality we're through.



                  The above remains true taking closures of spans and stuff, as far as I see it...







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Dec 13 '18 at 23:21









                  DonAntonioDonAntonio

                  178k1494230




                  178k1494230






























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