If $operatorname{Sym}_X simeq operatorname{Sym}_Y$ then there is bijection from $X to Y$











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If $operatorname{Sym}_X simeq operatorname{Sym}_Y$ then there is bijection from $X to Y$ ? ,



I proved the other way around, i think i need to build $f$ from $psi : operatorname{Sym}_X tooperatorname{Sym}_Y$.










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  • Related: Can the symmetric groups on sets of different cardinalities be isomorphic?
    – Alex Vong
    Nov 24 at 18:26















up vote
4
down vote

favorite












If $operatorname{Sym}_X simeq operatorname{Sym}_Y$ then there is bijection from $X to Y$ ? ,



I proved the other way around, i think i need to build $f$ from $psi : operatorname{Sym}_X tooperatorname{Sym}_Y$.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • Related: Can the symmetric groups on sets of different cardinalities be isomorphic?
    – Alex Vong
    Nov 24 at 18:26













up vote
4
down vote

favorite









up vote
4
down vote

favorite











If $operatorname{Sym}_X simeq operatorname{Sym}_Y$ then there is bijection from $X to Y$ ? ,



I proved the other way around, i think i need to build $f$ from $psi : operatorname{Sym}_X tooperatorname{Sym}_Y$.










share|cite|improve this question















If $operatorname{Sym}_X simeq operatorname{Sym}_Y$ then there is bijection from $X to Y$ ? ,



I proved the other way around, i think i need to build $f$ from $psi : operatorname{Sym}_X tooperatorname{Sym}_Y$.







abstract-algebra group-theory symmetric-groups






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edited yesterday









Davide Giraudo

124k16150258




124k16150258










asked Nov 24 at 16:17









Ahmad

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  • Related: Can the symmetric groups on sets of different cardinalities be isomorphic?
    – Alex Vong
    Nov 24 at 18:26


















  • Related: Can the symmetric groups on sets of different cardinalities be isomorphic?
    – Alex Vong
    Nov 24 at 18:26
















Related: Can the symmetric groups on sets of different cardinalities be isomorphic?
– Alex Vong
Nov 24 at 18:26




Related: Can the symmetric groups on sets of different cardinalities be isomorphic?
– Alex Vong
Nov 24 at 18:26










1 Answer
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up vote
3
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We have to recover $|X|$ from $operatorname{Sym}(X)$.



Note that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is finite iff $X$ is finite, and in that case, the cardinality of $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ uniquely determines that of $X$.
So we may assume that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is infinite (equivalently $X$ is infinite).
Let $Hsubseteq 2^{operatorname{Sym}(X)}$ consist of all elementary Abelian 2-subgroups in $operatorname{Sym}(X)$. These are isomorphic to additive groups of vector spaces over the 2-element field, and all of them contain the identity element and pairwise commuting involutions, i.e., possibly infinite products of transpositions with pairwise disjoint support. Let $kappa$ be the maximum dimension occurring over all these vector spaces (more precisely, we should define it as the supremum of all such dimensions, but it will turn out that there is an actual maximum, as well).



We claim that $kappa= |X|$.
First of all, it is possible to partition $|X|$ into $|X|$ pairs: the transpositions corresponding to these pairs form the basis of a vector space in $H$. So $kappageq |X|$.
For the reverse direction, note that in a vector space $Vin H$, for any two $f,gin V$ and $xin X$ it is not possible that $x, f(x)$ and $g(x)$ are three different elements, otherwise $f$ and $g$ do not commute. So for all $xin X$ either $x$ is a fixed point of the whole $V$, or there exists a unique $yin X$ such that "half" of the elements of $V$ fix $x$ and the other "half" transposes $x$ and $y$.
After dropping the fixed points, we have a unique $y$ for all $x$. But then the set of these transpositions $(x~y)$ certainly generates $V$. The cardinality of such a set of transpositions is clearly at most $|X|$, so $dim(V)leq |X|$ for all $Vin H$, i.e., $kappaleq |X|$.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • You forgot $0!=1!$.
    – user10354138
    Nov 24 at 21:08










  • Absolutely, thank you. I concentrated on the interesting case, when $X$ is infinite. So in fact, the statement itself is false: the fully symmetric group acting on the emptyset is isomorphic to the one acting on a 1-element set. But this is not a very impoortant issue, and easy to fix.
    – A. Pongrácz
    Nov 26 at 13:57











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1 Answer
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active

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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

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active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes








up vote
3
down vote













We have to recover $|X|$ from $operatorname{Sym}(X)$.



Note that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is finite iff $X$ is finite, and in that case, the cardinality of $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ uniquely determines that of $X$.
So we may assume that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is infinite (equivalently $X$ is infinite).
Let $Hsubseteq 2^{operatorname{Sym}(X)}$ consist of all elementary Abelian 2-subgroups in $operatorname{Sym}(X)$. These are isomorphic to additive groups of vector spaces over the 2-element field, and all of them contain the identity element and pairwise commuting involutions, i.e., possibly infinite products of transpositions with pairwise disjoint support. Let $kappa$ be the maximum dimension occurring over all these vector spaces (more precisely, we should define it as the supremum of all such dimensions, but it will turn out that there is an actual maximum, as well).



We claim that $kappa= |X|$.
First of all, it is possible to partition $|X|$ into $|X|$ pairs: the transpositions corresponding to these pairs form the basis of a vector space in $H$. So $kappageq |X|$.
For the reverse direction, note that in a vector space $Vin H$, for any two $f,gin V$ and $xin X$ it is not possible that $x, f(x)$ and $g(x)$ are three different elements, otherwise $f$ and $g$ do not commute. So for all $xin X$ either $x$ is a fixed point of the whole $V$, or there exists a unique $yin X$ such that "half" of the elements of $V$ fix $x$ and the other "half" transposes $x$ and $y$.
After dropping the fixed points, we have a unique $y$ for all $x$. But then the set of these transpositions $(x~y)$ certainly generates $V$. The cardinality of such a set of transpositions is clearly at most $|X|$, so $dim(V)leq |X|$ for all $Vin H$, i.e., $kappaleq |X|$.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • You forgot $0!=1!$.
    – user10354138
    Nov 24 at 21:08










  • Absolutely, thank you. I concentrated on the interesting case, when $X$ is infinite. So in fact, the statement itself is false: the fully symmetric group acting on the emptyset is isomorphic to the one acting on a 1-element set. But this is not a very impoortant issue, and easy to fix.
    – A. Pongrácz
    Nov 26 at 13:57















up vote
3
down vote













We have to recover $|X|$ from $operatorname{Sym}(X)$.



Note that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is finite iff $X$ is finite, and in that case, the cardinality of $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ uniquely determines that of $X$.
So we may assume that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is infinite (equivalently $X$ is infinite).
Let $Hsubseteq 2^{operatorname{Sym}(X)}$ consist of all elementary Abelian 2-subgroups in $operatorname{Sym}(X)$. These are isomorphic to additive groups of vector spaces over the 2-element field, and all of them contain the identity element and pairwise commuting involutions, i.e., possibly infinite products of transpositions with pairwise disjoint support. Let $kappa$ be the maximum dimension occurring over all these vector spaces (more precisely, we should define it as the supremum of all such dimensions, but it will turn out that there is an actual maximum, as well).



We claim that $kappa= |X|$.
First of all, it is possible to partition $|X|$ into $|X|$ pairs: the transpositions corresponding to these pairs form the basis of a vector space in $H$. So $kappageq |X|$.
For the reverse direction, note that in a vector space $Vin H$, for any two $f,gin V$ and $xin X$ it is not possible that $x, f(x)$ and $g(x)$ are three different elements, otherwise $f$ and $g$ do not commute. So for all $xin X$ either $x$ is a fixed point of the whole $V$, or there exists a unique $yin X$ such that "half" of the elements of $V$ fix $x$ and the other "half" transposes $x$ and $y$.
After dropping the fixed points, we have a unique $y$ for all $x$. But then the set of these transpositions $(x~y)$ certainly generates $V$. The cardinality of such a set of transpositions is clearly at most $|X|$, so $dim(V)leq |X|$ for all $Vin H$, i.e., $kappaleq |X|$.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • You forgot $0!=1!$.
    – user10354138
    Nov 24 at 21:08










  • Absolutely, thank you. I concentrated on the interesting case, when $X$ is infinite. So in fact, the statement itself is false: the fully symmetric group acting on the emptyset is isomorphic to the one acting on a 1-element set. But this is not a very impoortant issue, and easy to fix.
    – A. Pongrácz
    Nov 26 at 13:57













up vote
3
down vote










up vote
3
down vote









We have to recover $|X|$ from $operatorname{Sym}(X)$.



Note that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is finite iff $X$ is finite, and in that case, the cardinality of $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ uniquely determines that of $X$.
So we may assume that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is infinite (equivalently $X$ is infinite).
Let $Hsubseteq 2^{operatorname{Sym}(X)}$ consist of all elementary Abelian 2-subgroups in $operatorname{Sym}(X)$. These are isomorphic to additive groups of vector spaces over the 2-element field, and all of them contain the identity element and pairwise commuting involutions, i.e., possibly infinite products of transpositions with pairwise disjoint support. Let $kappa$ be the maximum dimension occurring over all these vector spaces (more precisely, we should define it as the supremum of all such dimensions, but it will turn out that there is an actual maximum, as well).



We claim that $kappa= |X|$.
First of all, it is possible to partition $|X|$ into $|X|$ pairs: the transpositions corresponding to these pairs form the basis of a vector space in $H$. So $kappageq |X|$.
For the reverse direction, note that in a vector space $Vin H$, for any two $f,gin V$ and $xin X$ it is not possible that $x, f(x)$ and $g(x)$ are three different elements, otherwise $f$ and $g$ do not commute. So for all $xin X$ either $x$ is a fixed point of the whole $V$, or there exists a unique $yin X$ such that "half" of the elements of $V$ fix $x$ and the other "half" transposes $x$ and $y$.
After dropping the fixed points, we have a unique $y$ for all $x$. But then the set of these transpositions $(x~y)$ certainly generates $V$. The cardinality of such a set of transpositions is clearly at most $|X|$, so $dim(V)leq |X|$ for all $Vin H$, i.e., $kappaleq |X|$.






share|cite|improve this answer














We have to recover $|X|$ from $operatorname{Sym}(X)$.



Note that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is finite iff $X$ is finite, and in that case, the cardinality of $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ uniquely determines that of $X$.
So we may assume that $operatorname{Sym}(X)$ is infinite (equivalently $X$ is infinite).
Let $Hsubseteq 2^{operatorname{Sym}(X)}$ consist of all elementary Abelian 2-subgroups in $operatorname{Sym}(X)$. These are isomorphic to additive groups of vector spaces over the 2-element field, and all of them contain the identity element and pairwise commuting involutions, i.e., possibly infinite products of transpositions with pairwise disjoint support. Let $kappa$ be the maximum dimension occurring over all these vector spaces (more precisely, we should define it as the supremum of all such dimensions, but it will turn out that there is an actual maximum, as well).



We claim that $kappa= |X|$.
First of all, it is possible to partition $|X|$ into $|X|$ pairs: the transpositions corresponding to these pairs form the basis of a vector space in $H$. So $kappageq |X|$.
For the reverse direction, note that in a vector space $Vin H$, for any two $f,gin V$ and $xin X$ it is not possible that $x, f(x)$ and $g(x)$ are three different elements, otherwise $f$ and $g$ do not commute. So for all $xin X$ either $x$ is a fixed point of the whole $V$, or there exists a unique $yin X$ such that "half" of the elements of $V$ fix $x$ and the other "half" transposes $x$ and $y$.
After dropping the fixed points, we have a unique $y$ for all $x$. But then the set of these transpositions $(x~y)$ certainly generates $V$. The cardinality of such a set of transpositions is clearly at most $|X|$, so $dim(V)leq |X|$ for all $Vin H$, i.e., $kappaleq |X|$.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited yesterday









Davide Giraudo

124k16150258




124k16150258










answered Nov 24 at 18:14









A. Pongrácz

5,063725




5,063725












  • You forgot $0!=1!$.
    – user10354138
    Nov 24 at 21:08










  • Absolutely, thank you. I concentrated on the interesting case, when $X$ is infinite. So in fact, the statement itself is false: the fully symmetric group acting on the emptyset is isomorphic to the one acting on a 1-element set. But this is not a very impoortant issue, and easy to fix.
    – A. Pongrácz
    Nov 26 at 13:57


















  • You forgot $0!=1!$.
    – user10354138
    Nov 24 at 21:08










  • Absolutely, thank you. I concentrated on the interesting case, when $X$ is infinite. So in fact, the statement itself is false: the fully symmetric group acting on the emptyset is isomorphic to the one acting on a 1-element set. But this is not a very impoortant issue, and easy to fix.
    – A. Pongrácz
    Nov 26 at 13:57
















You forgot $0!=1!$.
– user10354138
Nov 24 at 21:08




You forgot $0!=1!$.
– user10354138
Nov 24 at 21:08












Absolutely, thank you. I concentrated on the interesting case, when $X$ is infinite. So in fact, the statement itself is false: the fully symmetric group acting on the emptyset is isomorphic to the one acting on a 1-element set. But this is not a very impoortant issue, and easy to fix.
– A. Pongrácz
Nov 26 at 13:57




Absolutely, thank you. I concentrated on the interesting case, when $X$ is infinite. So in fact, the statement itself is false: the fully symmetric group acting on the emptyset is isomorphic to the one acting on a 1-element set. But this is not a very impoortant issue, and easy to fix.
– A. Pongrácz
Nov 26 at 13:57


















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