what is $lim_limits{x to infty}frac{ln(x)}{ln(x+sin(x))}$











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The textbook question is to solve this: $lim_{x to infty}=frac{ln(x)}{ln(x+sin(x))}$



I divide by $ln(x)$ and find :
$$lim_{x to infty}=frac{1}{1+frac{ln(sin(x))}{ln(x)}}$$



The answer is $1$ but i dont see how $lim_{x to infty}=1+frac{ln(sin(x))}{ln(x)}= 1$ because I thought $ln(sin(x)$ was undefined?










share|cite|improve this question




























    up vote
    0
    down vote

    favorite












    The textbook question is to solve this: $lim_{x to infty}=frac{ln(x)}{ln(x+sin(x))}$



    I divide by $ln(x)$ and find :
    $$lim_{x to infty}=frac{1}{1+frac{ln(sin(x))}{ln(x)}}$$



    The answer is $1$ but i dont see how $lim_{x to infty}=1+frac{ln(sin(x))}{ln(x)}= 1$ because I thought $ln(sin(x)$ was undefined?










    share|cite|improve this question


























      up vote
      0
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      0
      down vote

      favorite











      The textbook question is to solve this: $lim_{x to infty}=frac{ln(x)}{ln(x+sin(x))}$



      I divide by $ln(x)$ and find :
      $$lim_{x to infty}=frac{1}{1+frac{ln(sin(x))}{ln(x)}}$$



      The answer is $1$ but i dont see how $lim_{x to infty}=1+frac{ln(sin(x))}{ln(x)}= 1$ because I thought $ln(sin(x)$ was undefined?










      share|cite|improve this question















      The textbook question is to solve this: $lim_{x to infty}=frac{ln(x)}{ln(x+sin(x))}$



      I divide by $ln(x)$ and find :
      $$lim_{x to infty}=frac{1}{1+frac{ln(sin(x))}{ln(x)}}$$



      The answer is $1$ but i dont see how $lim_{x to infty}=1+frac{ln(sin(x))}{ln(x)}= 1$ because I thought $ln(sin(x)$ was undefined?







      calculus






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Oct 6 at 18:44









      gammatester

      16.6k21631




      16.6k21631










      asked Oct 6 at 18:23









      Curl

      7414




      7414






















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          2
          down vote



          accepted










          Maybe a possible simple way (without using things like Hospital rule):



          $$
          frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x+sin{(x)})}}=frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x}))}}=frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
          $$



          Now what is the limit of
          $$
          lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}} = ?
          $$



          Then you can deduce the limit of:



          $$
          lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
          $$



          This is important to realize that you can write
          $$
          lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}=frac{1}{1+lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
          $$

          only because $yrightarrow frac{1}{1+y}$ is continuous (around the limit value).






          share|cite|improve this answer






























            up vote
            3
            down vote













            You appear to have wrongly assumed that $$ln(x+sin(x))=ln(x)+ln(sin(x)). $$
            An easy way to evaluate this limit is to use the known bounds on the sine function.






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • So what you are saying is that ln(x+sin(x)) = ln(x) when x goes to infinite because sin(x) does not grow beyond -1 and 1?
              – Curl
              Oct 6 at 18:32










            • @Curl You can't use an $=$ sign here. I will agree if you replace it with $approx$.
              – user1337
              Oct 6 at 18:33






            • 2




              You can use $ln(x+sin x)= lnleft(xleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)right) =ln(x)+lnleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)$ where the last term goes to zero.
              – gammatester
              Oct 6 at 18:56


















            up vote
            0
            down vote













            The answer that I gave (below) originally seemed reasonable. However, per back and forth with zhw. in the comments, I'm forced to conclude that his counterexample is valid. My original answer is therefore left as a flawed idea.



            An alternative approach to Picaud Vincent's answer is to assume that if $dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty,;$ then $dfrac{text{ln}[f(x)]}{text{ln}[g(x)]}rightarrow 1.$



            Let $f(x)=x;$ and $g(x)=x+text{sin}(x).;$ Since $text{sin}(x);$ is a bounded function, $;dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty.$






            share|cite|improve this answer























            • That's false: Let $fequiv1,g(x) = 1+1/x.$
              – zhw.
              Oct 6 at 19:40










            • @zhw. in your example, doesn't $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrow infty?$
              – user2661923
              Oct 6 at 19:43












            • No, $ln f(x)equiv 0.$
              – zhw.
              Oct 6 at 20:25












            • @zhw. so when examining $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)}; text{as}; xrightarrow infty,;$ the numerator is always 0 and the denominator approaches 0. From this, how does one compute $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} ; text{as}; xrightarrow infty?$
              – user2661923
              Oct 6 at 21:24












            • @zhw. I see it now, you're right. I will edit my answer accordingly.
              – user2661923
              Oct 6 at 21:47











            Your Answer





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            3 Answers
            3






            active

            oldest

            votes








            3 Answers
            3






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes








            up vote
            2
            down vote



            accepted










            Maybe a possible simple way (without using things like Hospital rule):



            $$
            frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x+sin{(x)})}}=frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x}))}}=frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
            $$



            Now what is the limit of
            $$
            lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}} = ?
            $$



            Then you can deduce the limit of:



            $$
            lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
            $$



            This is important to realize that you can write
            $$
            lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}=frac{1}{1+lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
            $$

            only because $yrightarrow frac{1}{1+y}$ is continuous (around the limit value).






            share|cite|improve this answer



























              up vote
              2
              down vote



              accepted










              Maybe a possible simple way (without using things like Hospital rule):



              $$
              frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x+sin{(x)})}}=frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x}))}}=frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
              $$



              Now what is the limit of
              $$
              lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}} = ?
              $$



              Then you can deduce the limit of:



              $$
              lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
              $$



              This is important to realize that you can write
              $$
              lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}=frac{1}{1+lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
              $$

              only because $yrightarrow frac{1}{1+y}$ is continuous (around the limit value).






              share|cite|improve this answer

























                up vote
                2
                down vote



                accepted







                up vote
                2
                down vote



                accepted






                Maybe a possible simple way (without using things like Hospital rule):



                $$
                frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x+sin{(x)})}}=frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x}))}}=frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
                $$



                Now what is the limit of
                $$
                lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}} = ?
                $$



                Then you can deduce the limit of:



                $$
                lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
                $$



                This is important to realize that you can write
                $$
                lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}=frac{1}{1+lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
                $$

                only because $yrightarrow frac{1}{1+y}$ is continuous (around the limit value).






                share|cite|improve this answer














                Maybe a possible simple way (without using things like Hospital rule):



                $$
                frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x+sin{(x)})}}=frac{ln{(x)}}{ln{(x(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x}))}}=frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
                $$



                Now what is the limit of
                $$
                lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}} = ?
                $$



                Then you can deduce the limit of:



                $$
                lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
                $$



                This is important to realize that you can write
                $$
                lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{1}{1+frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}=frac{1}{1+lim_{xrightarrowinfty}frac{ln{(1+frac{sin{(x)}}{x})}}{ln{x}}}
                $$

                only because $yrightarrow frac{1}{1+y}$ is continuous (around the limit value).







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited Nov 24 at 17:24

























                answered Oct 6 at 19:10









                Picaud Vincent

                1,08325




                1,08325






















                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote













                    You appear to have wrongly assumed that $$ln(x+sin(x))=ln(x)+ln(sin(x)). $$
                    An easy way to evaluate this limit is to use the known bounds on the sine function.






                    share|cite|improve this answer





















                    • So what you are saying is that ln(x+sin(x)) = ln(x) when x goes to infinite because sin(x) does not grow beyond -1 and 1?
                      – Curl
                      Oct 6 at 18:32










                    • @Curl You can't use an $=$ sign here. I will agree if you replace it with $approx$.
                      – user1337
                      Oct 6 at 18:33






                    • 2




                      You can use $ln(x+sin x)= lnleft(xleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)right) =ln(x)+lnleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)$ where the last term goes to zero.
                      – gammatester
                      Oct 6 at 18:56















                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote













                    You appear to have wrongly assumed that $$ln(x+sin(x))=ln(x)+ln(sin(x)). $$
                    An easy way to evaluate this limit is to use the known bounds on the sine function.






                    share|cite|improve this answer





















                    • So what you are saying is that ln(x+sin(x)) = ln(x) when x goes to infinite because sin(x) does not grow beyond -1 and 1?
                      – Curl
                      Oct 6 at 18:32










                    • @Curl You can't use an $=$ sign here. I will agree if you replace it with $approx$.
                      – user1337
                      Oct 6 at 18:33






                    • 2




                      You can use $ln(x+sin x)= lnleft(xleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)right) =ln(x)+lnleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)$ where the last term goes to zero.
                      – gammatester
                      Oct 6 at 18:56













                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote









                    You appear to have wrongly assumed that $$ln(x+sin(x))=ln(x)+ln(sin(x)). $$
                    An easy way to evaluate this limit is to use the known bounds on the sine function.






                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    You appear to have wrongly assumed that $$ln(x+sin(x))=ln(x)+ln(sin(x)). $$
                    An easy way to evaluate this limit is to use the known bounds on the sine function.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Oct 6 at 18:27









                    user1337

                    16.9k43290




                    16.9k43290












                    • So what you are saying is that ln(x+sin(x)) = ln(x) when x goes to infinite because sin(x) does not grow beyond -1 and 1?
                      – Curl
                      Oct 6 at 18:32










                    • @Curl You can't use an $=$ sign here. I will agree if you replace it with $approx$.
                      – user1337
                      Oct 6 at 18:33






                    • 2




                      You can use $ln(x+sin x)= lnleft(xleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)right) =ln(x)+lnleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)$ where the last term goes to zero.
                      – gammatester
                      Oct 6 at 18:56


















                    • So what you are saying is that ln(x+sin(x)) = ln(x) when x goes to infinite because sin(x) does not grow beyond -1 and 1?
                      – Curl
                      Oct 6 at 18:32










                    • @Curl You can't use an $=$ sign here. I will agree if you replace it with $approx$.
                      – user1337
                      Oct 6 at 18:33






                    • 2




                      You can use $ln(x+sin x)= lnleft(xleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)right) =ln(x)+lnleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)$ where the last term goes to zero.
                      – gammatester
                      Oct 6 at 18:56
















                    So what you are saying is that ln(x+sin(x)) = ln(x) when x goes to infinite because sin(x) does not grow beyond -1 and 1?
                    – Curl
                    Oct 6 at 18:32




                    So what you are saying is that ln(x+sin(x)) = ln(x) when x goes to infinite because sin(x) does not grow beyond -1 and 1?
                    – Curl
                    Oct 6 at 18:32












                    @Curl You can't use an $=$ sign here. I will agree if you replace it with $approx$.
                    – user1337
                    Oct 6 at 18:33




                    @Curl You can't use an $=$ sign here. I will agree if you replace it with $approx$.
                    – user1337
                    Oct 6 at 18:33




                    2




                    2




                    You can use $ln(x+sin x)= lnleft(xleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)right) =ln(x)+lnleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)$ where the last term goes to zero.
                    – gammatester
                    Oct 6 at 18:56




                    You can use $ln(x+sin x)= lnleft(xleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)right) =ln(x)+lnleft(1+frac{sin}{x}right)$ where the last term goes to zero.
                    – gammatester
                    Oct 6 at 18:56










                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote













                    The answer that I gave (below) originally seemed reasonable. However, per back and forth with zhw. in the comments, I'm forced to conclude that his counterexample is valid. My original answer is therefore left as a flawed idea.



                    An alternative approach to Picaud Vincent's answer is to assume that if $dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty,;$ then $dfrac{text{ln}[f(x)]}{text{ln}[g(x)]}rightarrow 1.$



                    Let $f(x)=x;$ and $g(x)=x+text{sin}(x).;$ Since $text{sin}(x);$ is a bounded function, $;dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty.$






                    share|cite|improve this answer























                    • That's false: Let $fequiv1,g(x) = 1+1/x.$
                      – zhw.
                      Oct 6 at 19:40










                    • @zhw. in your example, doesn't $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrow infty?$
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 19:43












                    • No, $ln f(x)equiv 0.$
                      – zhw.
                      Oct 6 at 20:25












                    • @zhw. so when examining $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)}; text{as}; xrightarrow infty,;$ the numerator is always 0 and the denominator approaches 0. From this, how does one compute $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} ; text{as}; xrightarrow infty?$
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 21:24












                    • @zhw. I see it now, you're right. I will edit my answer accordingly.
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 21:47















                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote













                    The answer that I gave (below) originally seemed reasonable. However, per back and forth with zhw. in the comments, I'm forced to conclude that his counterexample is valid. My original answer is therefore left as a flawed idea.



                    An alternative approach to Picaud Vincent's answer is to assume that if $dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty,;$ then $dfrac{text{ln}[f(x)]}{text{ln}[g(x)]}rightarrow 1.$



                    Let $f(x)=x;$ and $g(x)=x+text{sin}(x).;$ Since $text{sin}(x);$ is a bounded function, $;dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty.$






                    share|cite|improve this answer























                    • That's false: Let $fequiv1,g(x) = 1+1/x.$
                      – zhw.
                      Oct 6 at 19:40










                    • @zhw. in your example, doesn't $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrow infty?$
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 19:43












                    • No, $ln f(x)equiv 0.$
                      – zhw.
                      Oct 6 at 20:25












                    • @zhw. so when examining $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)}; text{as}; xrightarrow infty,;$ the numerator is always 0 and the denominator approaches 0. From this, how does one compute $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} ; text{as}; xrightarrow infty?$
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 21:24












                    • @zhw. I see it now, you're right. I will edit my answer accordingly.
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 21:47













                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote









                    The answer that I gave (below) originally seemed reasonable. However, per back and forth with zhw. in the comments, I'm forced to conclude that his counterexample is valid. My original answer is therefore left as a flawed idea.



                    An alternative approach to Picaud Vincent's answer is to assume that if $dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty,;$ then $dfrac{text{ln}[f(x)]}{text{ln}[g(x)]}rightarrow 1.$



                    Let $f(x)=x;$ and $g(x)=x+text{sin}(x).;$ Since $text{sin}(x);$ is a bounded function, $;dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty.$






                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    The answer that I gave (below) originally seemed reasonable. However, per back and forth with zhw. in the comments, I'm forced to conclude that his counterexample is valid. My original answer is therefore left as a flawed idea.



                    An alternative approach to Picaud Vincent's answer is to assume that if $dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty,;$ then $dfrac{text{ln}[f(x)]}{text{ln}[g(x)]}rightarrow 1.$



                    Let $f(x)=x;$ and $g(x)=x+text{sin}(x).;$ Since $text{sin}(x);$ is a bounded function, $;dfrac{f(x)}{g(x)}rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrowinfty.$







                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    edited Oct 6 at 21:49

























                    answered Oct 6 at 19:23









                    user2661923

                    428112




                    428112












                    • That's false: Let $fequiv1,g(x) = 1+1/x.$
                      – zhw.
                      Oct 6 at 19:40










                    • @zhw. in your example, doesn't $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrow infty?$
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 19:43












                    • No, $ln f(x)equiv 0.$
                      – zhw.
                      Oct 6 at 20:25












                    • @zhw. so when examining $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)}; text{as}; xrightarrow infty,;$ the numerator is always 0 and the denominator approaches 0. From this, how does one compute $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} ; text{as}; xrightarrow infty?$
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 21:24












                    • @zhw. I see it now, you're right. I will edit my answer accordingly.
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 21:47


















                    • That's false: Let $fequiv1,g(x) = 1+1/x.$
                      – zhw.
                      Oct 6 at 19:40










                    • @zhw. in your example, doesn't $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrow infty?$
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 19:43












                    • No, $ln f(x)equiv 0.$
                      – zhw.
                      Oct 6 at 20:25












                    • @zhw. so when examining $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)}; text{as}; xrightarrow infty,;$ the numerator is always 0 and the denominator approaches 0. From this, how does one compute $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} ; text{as}; xrightarrow infty?$
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 21:24












                    • @zhw. I see it now, you're right. I will edit my answer accordingly.
                      – user2661923
                      Oct 6 at 21:47
















                    That's false: Let $fequiv1,g(x) = 1+1/x.$
                    – zhw.
                    Oct 6 at 19:40




                    That's false: Let $fequiv1,g(x) = 1+1/x.$
                    – zhw.
                    Oct 6 at 19:40












                    @zhw. in your example, doesn't $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrow infty?$
                    – user2661923
                    Oct 6 at 19:43






                    @zhw. in your example, doesn't $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} rightarrow 1;$ as $xrightarrow infty?$
                    – user2661923
                    Oct 6 at 19:43














                    No, $ln f(x)equiv 0.$
                    – zhw.
                    Oct 6 at 20:25






                    No, $ln f(x)equiv 0.$
                    – zhw.
                    Oct 6 at 20:25














                    @zhw. so when examining $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)}; text{as}; xrightarrow infty,;$ the numerator is always 0 and the denominator approaches 0. From this, how does one compute $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} ; text{as}; xrightarrow infty?$
                    – user2661923
                    Oct 6 at 21:24






                    @zhw. so when examining $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)}; text{as}; xrightarrow infty,;$ the numerator is always 0 and the denominator approaches 0. From this, how does one compute $dfrac{text{ln}(f)}{text{ln}(g)} ; text{as}; xrightarrow infty?$
                    – user2661923
                    Oct 6 at 21:24














                    @zhw. I see it now, you're right. I will edit my answer accordingly.
                    – user2661923
                    Oct 6 at 21:47




                    @zhw. I see it now, you're right. I will edit my answer accordingly.
                    – user2661923
                    Oct 6 at 21:47


















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