How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$? [on hold]











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How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?



Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.



I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.










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put on hold as off-topic by Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797 2 days ago


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "This question is missing context or other details: Please improve the question by providing additional context, which ideally includes your thoughts on the problem and any attempts you have made to solve it. This information helps others identify where you have difficulties and helps them write answers appropriate to your experience level." – Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797

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  • Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 20 at 14:43










  • @RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
    – Arthur
    Nov 20 at 14:44










  • @RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
    – Darth Geek
    Nov 20 at 14:44










  • @RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
    – Mark Bennet
    Nov 20 at 14:45










  • I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
    – Zvi
    Nov 20 at 14:45

















up vote
2
down vote

favorite
1












How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?



Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.



I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.










share|cite|improve this question















put on hold as off-topic by Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797 2 days ago


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "This question is missing context or other details: Please improve the question by providing additional context, which ideally includes your thoughts on the problem and any attempts you have made to solve it. This information helps others identify where you have difficulties and helps them write answers appropriate to your experience level." – Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.













  • Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 20 at 14:43










  • @RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
    – Arthur
    Nov 20 at 14:44










  • @RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
    – Darth Geek
    Nov 20 at 14:44










  • @RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
    – Mark Bennet
    Nov 20 at 14:45










  • I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
    – Zvi
    Nov 20 at 14:45















up vote
2
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
2
down vote

favorite
1






1





How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?



Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.



I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.










share|cite|improve this question















How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?



Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.



I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.







group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups






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share|cite|improve this question













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edited Nov 20 at 14:46









Zvi

3,595223




3,595223










asked Nov 20 at 14:41









So Lo

61818




61818




put on hold as off-topic by Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797 2 days ago


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "This question is missing context or other details: Please improve the question by providing additional context, which ideally includes your thoughts on the problem and any attempts you have made to solve it. This information helps others identify where you have difficulties and helps them write answers appropriate to your experience level." – Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.




put on hold as off-topic by Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797 2 days ago


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "This question is missing context or other details: Please improve the question by providing additional context, which ideally includes your thoughts on the problem and any attempts you have made to solve it. This information helps others identify where you have difficulties and helps them write answers appropriate to your experience level." – Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.












  • Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 20 at 14:43










  • @RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
    – Arthur
    Nov 20 at 14:44










  • @RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
    – Darth Geek
    Nov 20 at 14:44










  • @RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
    – Mark Bennet
    Nov 20 at 14:45










  • I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
    – Zvi
    Nov 20 at 14:45




















  • Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    Nov 20 at 14:43










  • @RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
    – Arthur
    Nov 20 at 14:44










  • @RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
    – Darth Geek
    Nov 20 at 14:44










  • @RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
    – Mark Bennet
    Nov 20 at 14:45










  • I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
    – Zvi
    Nov 20 at 14:45


















Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 20 at 14:43




Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 20 at 14:43












@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
Nov 20 at 14:44




@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
Nov 20 at 14:44












@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
Nov 20 at 14:44




@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
Nov 20 at 14:44












@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
Nov 20 at 14:45




@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
Nov 20 at 14:45












I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
Nov 20 at 14:45






I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
Nov 20 at 14:45












3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote



accepted










Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 2




    Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
    – So Lo
    Nov 20 at 14:54












  • Yes!$!!!!!$
    – Travis
    Nov 20 at 15:06


















up vote
4
down vote













Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




  • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


  • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.






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    up vote
    0
    down vote













    HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.






    share|cite|improve this answer




























      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted










      Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?






      share|cite|improve this answer

















      • 2




        Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
        – So Lo
        Nov 20 at 14:54












      • Yes!$!!!!!$
        – Travis
        Nov 20 at 15:06















      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted










      Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?






      share|cite|improve this answer

















      • 2




        Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
        – So Lo
        Nov 20 at 14:54












      • Yes!$!!!!!$
        – Travis
        Nov 20 at 15:06













      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted






      Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?






      share|cite|improve this answer












      Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered Nov 20 at 14:52









      Travis

      58.7k765142




      58.7k765142








      • 2




        Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
        – So Lo
        Nov 20 at 14:54












      • Yes!$!!!!!$
        – Travis
        Nov 20 at 15:06














      • 2




        Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
        – So Lo
        Nov 20 at 14:54












      • Yes!$!!!!!$
        – Travis
        Nov 20 at 15:06








      2




      2




      Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
      – So Lo
      Nov 20 at 14:54






      Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
      – So Lo
      Nov 20 at 14:54














      Yes!$!!!!!$
      – Travis
      Nov 20 at 15:06




      Yes!$!!!!!$
      – Travis
      Nov 20 at 15:06










      up vote
      4
      down vote













      Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



      If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




      • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


      • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



      So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



      If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



      If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
      $$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
      and
      $$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



      If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.






      share|cite|improve this answer



























        up vote
        4
        down vote













        Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



        If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




        • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


        • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



        So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



        If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



        If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
        $$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
        and
        $$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



        If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.






        share|cite|improve this answer

























          up vote
          4
          down vote










          up vote
          4
          down vote









          Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



          If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




          • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


          • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



          So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



          If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



          If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
          $$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
          and
          $$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



          If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



          If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




          • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


          • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



          So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



          If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



          If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
          $$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
          and
          $$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



          If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.







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          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Nov 20 at 19:35

























          answered Nov 20 at 15:12









          Zvi

          3,595223




          3,595223






















              up vote
              0
              down vote













              HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.






              share|cite|improve this answer

























                up vote
                0
                down vote













                HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.






                share|cite|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Nov 20 at 14:48









                  Josué Tonelli-Cueto

                  3,6521027




                  3,6521027















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