How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$? [on hold]
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How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?
Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.
I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
put on hold as off-topic by Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797 2 days ago
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
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up vote
2
down vote
favorite
How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?
Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.
I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
put on hold as off-topic by Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797 2 days ago
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please improve the question by providing additional context, which ideally includes your thoughts on the problem and any attempts you have made to solve it. This information helps others identify where you have difficulties and helps them write answers appropriate to your experience level." – Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 20 at 14:43
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
Nov 20 at 14:45
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
Nov 20 at 14:45
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show 6 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?
Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.
I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?
Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.
I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
edited Nov 20 at 14:46
Zvi
3,595223
3,595223
asked Nov 20 at 14:41
So Lo
61818
61818
put on hold as off-topic by Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797 2 days ago
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please improve the question by providing additional context, which ideally includes your thoughts on the problem and any attempts you have made to solve it. This information helps others identify where you have difficulties and helps them write answers appropriate to your experience level." – Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
put on hold as off-topic by Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797 2 days ago
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please improve the question by providing additional context, which ideally includes your thoughts on the problem and any attempts you have made to solve it. This information helps others identify where you have difficulties and helps them write answers appropriate to your experience level." – Derek Holt, Rushabh Mehta, Dietrich Burde, user21820, user302797
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 20 at 14:43
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
Nov 20 at 14:45
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
Nov 20 at 14:45
|
show 6 more comments
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 20 at 14:43
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
Nov 20 at 14:45
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
Nov 20 at 14:45
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 20 at 14:43
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 20 at 14:43
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
Nov 20 at 14:45
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
Nov 20 at 14:45
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
Nov 20 at 14:45
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
Nov 20 at 14:45
|
show 6 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
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up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
Nov 20 at 14:54
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
Nov 20 at 15:06
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
add a comment |
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0
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HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
Nov 20 at 14:54
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
Nov 20 at 15:06
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
Nov 20 at 14:54
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
Nov 20 at 15:06
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
answered Nov 20 at 14:52
Travis
58.7k765142
58.7k765142
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
Nov 20 at 14:54
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
Nov 20 at 15:06
add a comment |
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
Nov 20 at 14:54
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
Nov 20 at 15:06
2
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
Nov 20 at 14:54
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
Nov 20 at 14:54
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
Nov 20 at 15:06
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
Nov 20 at 15:06
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
edited Nov 20 at 19:35
answered Nov 20 at 15:12
Zvi
3,595223
3,595223
add a comment |
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0
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HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
add a comment |
up vote
0
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HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
add a comment |
up vote
0
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up vote
0
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HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
answered Nov 20 at 14:48
Josué Tonelli-Cueto
3,6521027
3,6521027
add a comment |
add a comment |
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
Nov 20 at 14:43
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
Nov 20 at 14:44
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
Nov 20 at 14:45
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
Nov 20 at 14:45